Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
M57

Posting Finished works to Feedback Forums

Recommended Posts

I just wanted to inquire about the policy regarding posting songs where it's pretty clear that the poster has no intention of making any changes to the work. I understand that a poster could be interested in how to better the song for performance purposes, as well as to gauge what works and doesn't work with the intention of using this information as they write new material. However, this line of reasoning can be seen as a slippery slope, inviting anyone who has recorded anything to post it for promotional purposes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The catalyst for this post was obviously The Intimates song, "Proud" and frankly I don't see the issue.  It's not as if they posted their song without asking for a critique or review.  So, because they have what appears to be a finished piece means it shouldn't be posted because one thinks they have no intent to make changes?  Says who and even if that were true, so what? People can still critique, review and comment . I'm sure anyone would digest, ponder over and think about remarks even if they don't utilize them by changing what they originally posted.  They said if I recall correctly, they're incorporating critiques into their live performances and future recordings.  This post is not a very good welcome. Give everyone a chance. If they and others contribute to the community and have offered their thoughts on the work of others and I see they have, then the forums for critique whether they intend to change their lyrics or musical recordings or not is of no concern to at least me.  Come on we're all looking for a little spotlight and attention from time to time with what we showcase regardless of commercial intent or lack of it.  No offense, but if it's a problem for you, then don't post on any of their threads or others if you feel that way about the artist's intent and material.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fair enough - I'm simply trying to gauge the thoughts of the community on this. Personally, I don't want to spend my time and energy critically listening and commenting on things where I feel that my constructive input will be ignored.  Granted, I can elect not to listen and comment, but truth be told, I don't even like spending time parsing through posts that don't meet my admittedly personal criteria.  For instance, I don't want to listen to instrumentals (which are allowed). That's an even bigger time-suck because it can take a while before you figure out there are no lyrics. My work-around - I simply don't listen if the lyrics are not posted.  But gauging the intent of a poster of a song with lyrics included requires a little more scrutiny - and time. Honestly, I feel I'm being taken advantage of when I click on blatantly promotional posts. On the other hand, I can see that it is not an entirely black and white issue. Of course the poster may very well want a detailed critique which would then inform future work.  i get that - but I see in that logic a very slippery slope where the site simply becomes a dumping ground for promoting works.

 

I'm new to this site, but given my experience with other similar sites I see it as a scaling issue. I would suggest that the site simply creates a separate forum for showcasing completed works (and perhaps for reviewing instrumentals as well). Posters can ask for critical comments there as well.  Seriously, if it was done well, I might participate. On a related note, I have to admit I'm not a fan of seeing a member's SC spotlight in their signature - it just muddy's up the page.  A showcase link for individual members (maybe with fee for certain features) comes to mind as a possible solution to all of the above. I know I would click on it.

 

EDIT: The other solution that comes to mind is to have a separate forum for works in progress, and where constructive advice is solicited.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We do get people posting stuff that is clearly just for promotional reasons - sometimes not even their own material! There is often some give away - the post may simply be "Awesome new groove from XXX!" or something. Generally, we just move this kind of post to the Self Promotion and Advertisements forum (unless it is clearly not even the artist who is posting, in which case I will delete it - and, if the same poster keeps posting that stuff, ban the poster). 

 

Other than that, there are times when people want to share some work but don't want critiques. That's what Artist's Cafe is for. Maybe we should change the name to Artist's Showcase to make that clearer. Posts in Artist's Cafe could be songs, but could also be poems, paintings, whatever.

 

Songs Feedback is used according to the wishes of the poster. There are many reasons someone may want feedback, some of which have been mentioned above - feedback for use in future songs, feedback that can be applied to live and future performances of the song, feedback on the mix/instrumentation/lyric.

 

Not everyone will want to re-record their work following feedback and that's fine. Some, for example, mostly play live and only record to get that feedback (and recording can be a lot of work). And then there is the situation where, following feedback and having some space to listen to our own work with fresh ears, we put it quietly out of its misery (been there - done that!).

 

Equally, some people will want to wait until they have done all they can to a song before they post it (and may even be kind of sick of it by this point) while others may want to post very early stages of a song so that they can get ideas and opinions on how to best develop it. All good, in my book.

 

Some may simply be hoping for an "attaboy" - and that's fine too (though they may also get suggestions for improvement). In any event, I think I subscribe to the view that a song is never "finished" (we just stop actively working on it at some point).

 

I think that, as long as the poster welcomes feedback, all is well. Better still if they also offer feedback to other people. If they don't welcome feedback and don't offer feedback, people stop posting on their material, generally. I think it works itself out.

 

So, we have 3 areas on the forums. Self Promotion for the purely promotional stuff, Artist's Cafe if no feedback is requested and Songs Feedback for when feedback is welcome.

 

We also have blogs. If anyone wanted to create a showcase blog with entries for each of their songs (or lyrics) that would also be fine. If they wanted to give the story behind each one, that would be even better.

 

On the whole, I'm not sure we need anything else (maybe clearer signposting?). It will never be perfect and we will never be able to be certain of people's reasons for posting but I do think it works reasonably well.

 

Of course, we all make choices about where and when we give feedback - and those choices are entirely our own to make too. 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, M57 said:

I don't want to spend my time and energy critically listening and commenting on things where I feel that my constructive input will be ignored

With respect, I find this posture very strange.

Maybe it's my problem, but I find that I cannot actually read or watch or listen to anything UN-critically.

For me, it is a core part of my learning process.

 

If you ignore this constructive input, M57, I don't know how I should ever replace my wasted time and effort.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Lazz said:

With respect, I find this posture very strange.

Maybe it's my problem, but I find that I cannot actually read or watch or listen to anything UN-critically.

For me, it is a core part of my learning process.

 

If you ignore this constructive input, M57, I don't know how I should ever replace my wasted time and effort.

 

I'm not sure if you understand my point, but I don't think your effort was (entirely) wasted. I too cannot cannot listen un-critically.  The wasted time and effort subsequently used to construct a helpful post with the idea that the recipient will use the information is what I'm talking about.  Yes, it's often the work involved in constructing the criticism that goes to the core of my learning process as well.  That's one reason why I post on the music of other much more than I post my own music.  Like you, I listen critically it to all music, unsolicited or not, but not on paper or in written form. That takes additional energy and time.  If I'm going to add physical work and extra time into the equation, I would just assume that I not be the only person benefitting.

 

With that thought in mind I would point out that if I am writing about music for which no improvements are likely in the offing - any constructive criticism is somewhat by definition reduced to simple criticism ..and therin not only lies the "waste," but also the potential for bad feelings on all sides - especially if the poster is just looking for a pat on the back.  If the policy is that folks can post music in any state as long as they want criticism, then so be it.  I am simply asking what the policy is. I don't want to rock the boat. My intention is to use the site in a way that conforms to its policies.

 

BTW, I just found the Self Promotion forum - for some reason, I didn't see it before.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lazz makes a good point, and reminds me of something that may be helpful.

 

I'm not active really, these days, but, when I was, I think I learned more from giving critiques than I ever learned from receiving them. Is it ever wasted time? I'm not sure it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lazz said:

If you ignore this constructive input, M57, I don't know how I should ever replace my wasted time and effort.

There are a few times when I regret my principled refusal to embrace emoticons.

This may be one of them.

 

Please be assured the sentence was meant and sent with jivin' smile implicit.

 

I agree with you about the hard work  The labour and care of writing with intent. The wish to make it useful, at least. The sweat of analysis. And how to get it across. The avoidance of ambiguity. Designing the critique in a style unlikely to piss the recipient off.  Protocols and practicalities. Pitching comment at the appropriate level in a way that can be understood.... Hard work indeed if we take it seriously.  (And, if we're not taking it seriously, why else would we bother?)

 

So yeah: you're right.

No argument.

 

And yeah, I also agree with Alistair's observation about the intrinsic value of critique per se.

There is ever something productive and positive has to come from all that heart and effort.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let us not forget that it is entirely up to the artist to use the critiques and advice offered. It is their song after all. I have in the past received advise that I tried to incorporate into my song only to find that I did not like it or I just couldn't pull it off. Sometimes we may just totally disagree with one another, and that in my opinion is okay.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Alistair 

i think calling it Artists showcase is a great idea

All the best

Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×