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Murphster

Lana Del Rey & Radiohead copyright claim

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Not being much of a fan of Lana Del Rey I had never heard this track from her latest album. But I read today that Radiohead were going legal regarding credit for this track so I had to give it a listen. 

 

Wow. Gotta say it is not very subtle. I am amazed that she thought she would get away with this. Surely somebody involved in the record would have noticed this?

 

I am only posting really because I am so amazed at the similarities. Seems mind boggling that this could happen with such a well known song...

 

 

 

 

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There’s definitely some similarities in the verse sections. I didn’t hear anything similar in the chorus. I’m not sure if it’s the same chord progressions or not. I’ve heard songs that sound a lot more similar than these two. The one big reason these songs aren’t similar in any way is Radiohead’s song is great. An instant classic. The Del Ray song here sucks a big fat one in my opinion.  Not to many people are going to hear it. I had a hard time listening to the whole song. 

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For the song I do think the beginning section uses the same chord progression. Adding the minor chord version of the 4 is very distinct. Melody choices start to sound the same over that kind of section and with the same tempo you can't get away from it. Radio head didn't get away from it in theirs either... 

 

The irony for this whole thing is that Radio Head was sued for this song by the Hollies and already had to give up a percentage of Creep to them. Apparently later sections of the song map to the Hollies song. Maybe they are just trying to re-coop their loses. Awfully capitalist for a hipster band...

 

I do not think a song writer can own a chord progression. If that were the case we'd run out of progressions. Unfortunately that chord progression lends itself to slower tempos and if you do that the similarities are going to pop. It's probably hard to get away from weather you mean it or not if you pick up on that little trick no matter the key. She actually listened and acknowledged the similarities and offered them 40% though she said she didn't mean to. They said they wouldn't take anything less than 100%. 

 

Maybe the Hollies need to join the lawsuit and get money from the both of them. Also Radio Head, being hipsters, hate the success of this song and never play it live and haven't acknowledged its existence until now. 

 

I wouldn't have an issue with the lawsuit if they hadn't already been busted for stealing it in the first place. I'm sure they don't feel they stole it. So why can't someone else make the same mistake? Leading me back to that chord progression. I think it lends itself to this kind of thing with the chords in that order and adding a minor of the 4 as the last chord.... My .5 cents...  

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5 hours ago, Scotto said:

For the song I do think the beginning section uses the same chord progression. Adding the minor chord version of the 4 is very distinct. Melody choices start to sound the same over that kind of section and with the same tempo you can't get away from it. Radio head didn't get away from it in theirs either... 

 

The irony for this whole thing is that Radio Head was sued for this song by the Hollies and already had to give up a percentage of Creep to them. Apparently later sections of the song map to the Hollies song. Maybe they are just trying to re-coop their loses. Awfully capitalist for a hipster band...

 

I do not think a song writer can own a chord progression. If that were the case we'd run out of progressions. Unfortunately that chord progression lends itself to slower tempos and if you do that the similarities are going to pop. It's probably hard to get away from weather you mean it or not if you pick up on that little trick no matter the key. She actually listened and acknowledged the similarities and offered them 40% though she said she didn't mean to. They said they wouldn't take anything less than 100%. 

 

Maybe the Hollies need to join the lawsuit and get money from the both of them. Also Radio Head, being hipsters, hate the success of this song and never play it live and haven't acknowledged its existence until now. 

 

I wouldn't have an issue with the lawsuit if they hadn't already been busted for stealing it in the first place. I'm sure they don't feel they stole it. So why can't someone else make the same mistake? Leading me back to that chord progression. I think it lends itself to this kind of thing with the chords in that order and adding a minor of the 4 as the last chord.... My .5 cents...  

Good stuff Scotto. It sounds absolutely ridiculous that Radiohead would sue somebody on the same song they were sued for. WTF is wrong with people. And they wouldn’t settle for 40%. Greedy assholes! Are they nuts. I wonder what percentage they gave up to the Hollies. Anyway, Radiohead Creep is a favorite of mine. I also hear they won’t play it anymore. But I’m sure they don’t mind the royalties rolling in. Probably giving the band members and their families a decent life. Assuming the Hollies didn’t get much of a percentage. 

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I just did a little research. The Hollies and Radiohead settled out of court and two songwriters that weren’t in the Hollies band were included in the songwriting credits for Radiohead version. 

 I heard the Hollies song many times, it never reminded me of Creep while I was listening. However now because I was looking for it, it definitely has verse similarities. A lot more similarities between the Hollies and Radiohead songs than Radiohead and Del Ray songs. 

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1 hour ago, Onewholovesrock said:

A lot more similarities between the Hollies and Radiohead songs than Radiohead and Del Ray songs. 

Just the opposite imo.

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2 hours ago, Onewholovesrock said:

I just did a little research. The Hollies and Radiohead settled out of court and two songwriters that weren’t in the Hollies band were included in the songwriting credits for Radiohead version. 

 I heard the Hollies song many times, it never reminded me of Creep while I was listening. However now because I was looking for it, it definitely has verse similarities. A lot more similarities between the Hollies and Radiohead songs than Radiohead and Del Ray songs. 

The Hollies thing was more about the Middle 8, and when I first heard about that I listened to them again and fully agree that they had a real case. There are many similarities between that track and the Creep middle 8, the verses not really for me.

 

I do think that this Lana Del Rey track is worse. It is weird how we all hear things differently but in my mind there is no doubt that her verses just completely copy Creep. I would have a hard time believing that anyone could do that by accident, I mean I guess it can happen, but I am far too cynical to believe it.

 

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14 minutes ago, Murphster said:

The Hollies thing was more about the Middle 8, and when I first heard about that I listened to them again and fully agree that they had a real case. There are many similarities between that track and the Creep middle 8, the verses not really for me.

 

I do think that this Lana Del Rey track is worse. It is weird how we all hear things differently but in my mind there is no doubt that her verses just completely copy Creep. I would have a hard time believing that anyone could do that by accident, I mean I guess it can happen, but I am far too cynical to believe it.

 

I believe it can happen by accident. It happened to me once. But if it happens by accident it obviously doesn’t make it right. I wrote what I thought was a pretty cool classic rock style song. A few months later jamming with my buddy he started playing my song. I asked him what was he playing, I didn’t understand how he would know my song. He said it was KISS. I seriously wrote a KISS song. Like almost exactly. I have never listened to KISS on purpose. I heard the song plenty of times on Classic Rock radio. Somehow while writing the familiarity of that song came out. I didn’t notice because a KISS song would never come to mind as I never actively listened to them. If I moved forward I assume my lyrics and vocals would’v been a lot different. But the music would’ve been obviously comparable to that KISS song.

 I hope Gene Simmons doesn’t want royalty from my use of the word KISS here. 😀 

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It's interesting. It used to be my biggest fear, and when I started writing I would literally refuse to believe that anything I write was original. I would scour the internet looking for where I stole a melody from. I still do sometimes when I just cannot believe I came up with something but thankfully that is rare now.

 

It all changed when I listened to a podcast (Sodajerker) interview with Dan Gillespie Sells where he talked about just not caring about it and finishing the song anyway. Worst thing that could happen is you have a hit and get sued. Not a bad outcome in the grand scheme.of things.

 

Noel Gallagher talked about something similar on the most recent Sodajerker podcast, he said that whenever he thinks a song is turning into a T-Rex song, for example, he just goes all in and makes it more a T-Rex song. None of us are inventing anything, everything has been done before, we are just re-using and re-mixing effectively.

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I actually covered this song for a few years and I do like it. It’s interesting but try and write a song around G B C Cm. I was messing around on acoustic today and fast slow whatever I can’t get away from hearing it. Odd case where that chord progression has to be locked up for a while. 

 

Generally speaking there are thousands of songs with the same chord progressions and you don’t notice most of the time because it is how you play them and what you do with them. 

 

I couldn’t get away from it here... Anyone using those chords is going to pay everyone on down the line lol

 

 

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I agree with Murphster.It’s all been done. I don’t disrespect most of the artists in these cases who are being sued. Also it is more likely Radio Head’s publisher is doing the suing and the band is only marginally aware. Still... lawyers amiright?

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38 minutes ago, Scotto said:

I actually covered this song for a few years and I do like it. It’s interesting but try and write a song around G B C Cm. I was messing around on acoustic today and fast slow whatever I can’t get away from hearing it. Odd case where that chord progression has to be locked up for a while. 

 

Generally speaking there are thousands of songs with the same chord progressions and you don’t notice most of the time because it is how you play them and what you do with them. 

 

I couldn’t get away from it here... Anyone using those chords is going to pay everyone on down the line lol

 

 

It might be fun to run a monthly competition where everyone has to use this chord progression to write an entry... 

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Can hear some similarities in the verse melody - mainly due to the two note melodic "dee-dar" fall-off hook at the end of the verse lines. 

 

Be surprised if a lot of other songs don't also sound similar as it's such a simple melodic hook. 

 

There are some differences in syllable count and melisma (different note vocal playing around on the same syllable) introduced between the two songs.

 

The Radiohead singer goes (intentionally?) flat on some of the word delivery, presumably to give the performance more grit/character - that might complicate things.

 

Two good songs though - enjoyed them both. Love Lana Del Rey's low husky voice - especially on "Maleficent"

 

Andy

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9 hours ago, Murphster said:

It might be fun to run a monthly competition where everyone has to use this chord progression to write an entry... 

We used to do things like that in the collab contests. They were always a lot of fun and a great chance to collab and work with people around the Muse. Maybe bring it to the Roman numerals so you can move your key to suite your vocal. I wouldn't want to use that particular progression though.. We'd probably get sued by Lana :P. Also interesting that not a lot of main stream songs have used that progression. At least I couldn't find any outside of what has been listed. 

 

 

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They brought this exact topic up today on Sirius volume channel 106. Nothing new than what we already know. But the next 2 hours they  compared these types of similar songs. There are tons of them. Sometimes there were lawsuits and a lot of times there were not.  

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Inadvertently infringing some one else's melody is a risk we all face when composing a melody for our lyrics.

 

A couple of questions:

 

Think I remember reading some where that up to 6 notes of similarity was ok but 7notes was a 'no-no' copyright wise - does anyone know it this rule-of-thumb is correct?

 

There are apps around these days, such as SoundHound, which can listen to a commercial song being played and then identify it for you - very useful if you hear something on the radio you like and have your mobile handy to identify it on the spot, as the radio presenters often don't identify it at the end of the song! 

 

I'm wondering if using something like SoundHound on your own song would be a good way to warn yourself that your own melody is too close to an existing song? Anyone though of doing this?

 

Andy

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, AndyLeF said:

Inadvertently infringing some one else's melody is a risk we all face when composing a melody for our lyrics.

 

A couple of questions:

 

Think I remember reading some where that up to 6 notes of similarity was ok but 7notes was a 'no-no' copyright wise - does anyone know it this rule-of-thumb is correct?

 

There are apps around these days, such as SoundHound, which can listen to a commercial song being played and then identify it for you - very useful if you hear something on the radio you like and have your mobile handy to identify it on the spot, as the radio presenters often don't identify it at the end of the song! 

 

I'm wondering if using something like SoundHound on your own song would be a good way to warn yourself that your own melody is too close to an existing song? Anyone though of doing this?

 

Andy

 

 

 

 

I have heard the six note rule too, I have no idea how true it is though. I was thinking about it just this weekend as I have a song I am working on that I just know the opening line shares the same melody as an existing fairly big hit. In this case the melody for the first line is 5 notes. I decided to just ignore it and carry on, the rest of the song is different enough. It seems to work for every single Ed Sheeran song.

 

I have tried using SoundHound but it never finds anything when I play a melody into it. I am not sure melody is a big part of how it finds a match, there will be a ton of algorithms that look for certain aspects of a recording to find a match, I would imagine tempo, key, rhythm would be there as well.

 

 

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If you are as familiar with singing Radiohead's creep, there is a very noticeable similarity with Creep's chorus and Lana Del Ray's pre chorus.
Maybe not for note for note the same, but very very similar choice of notes.

"This is my commitment, my modern manifesto.."
"Im a creep, I'm a werido.."

She's added in a bit of swing and a few more syllables but its very similar otherwise.

I definitely get a feeling of familiarity with Creeps Verse and Get Free too. But its mostly a rhythmic thing, not a melody thing and not something that I think should be legally bound as the same song
Using verse two (because it doesn't have any censored words):

"Like my part was i, Was not discerning"
"When you were here before, couldn't look you in the eye"
"And you as we found out, were not in your right mind"

"You're just like an angel, your skin makes me cry"

They obviously aren't the same song throughout. Which then leads into how much of the song Radiohead should own.
If it's just the first bit, it should be like 20% at the most. And that's still generous. Its probably closer to 5% of the song.

I'm more surprised by how awful the record sounds. Sounds like she's trying to replicate super indie artists like Weyes Blood and failing miserably.
And some of her lyrical phrasing is just all over the place and very janky. "That comes from energies combined" it almost sounds like they used the wrong take. Im sure I could get that to fit better than she did (lol!)

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Here's another contested copyright claim - this time on lyrics involving Taylor Swift...

 

Basically if a 'copied' lyric is too "banal" or not "creative enough" then you don't stand a chance of protecting copyright for it.

 

Hmmm, wonder how much these layers are making for simply exercising 'common-sense'...!

 

Andy

 

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I wonder what sort of royalties someone like Lana Del Rey will get on this song anyway?

 

1 million spotify streams? Isnt that about $20?

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