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Well it all started with Jefferson vs Adams here in the US and we've never looked back. Fake news, smearing, and real nastiness won that election for Jefferson. It's something that has been around a long time. All of our super hyper connectivity in the modern age amplifies it. I think there have been cyclical times of nastiness in American politics though this does feel to be a generally horrible time to live in politically. Both sides make sweeping generalizations to categorize the other sides view points and define them for each other to discredit whole swaths of opinions they disagree with. It does feel very tribal and often does not live in a factual place. In this day and age everyone has their own media. Each side will decry the other side and the battle lines are fought viciously against each other on all fronts except the physical ones. At some point as we drive each other to extremes I fear that those extremes will drive out and the insane start to become the sane. 

 

At the end of the day there is a mentality these days to do anything it takes to win the argument. No one can say they don't know. No one can admit they are wrong about anything. No quarter, no holds barred. Win the argument! 

 

There are real issues and problems to be solved. Many don't have watered down simplified black and white answers and most of the noise that fights for hearts and minds of men cannot acknowledge those nuances in a sound bite. 

 

Facebook fascinates me in that it only takes 5 posts to scroll down and hit a thought control piece from one side of the political spectrum or another. Rarely are those posts anything useful or factual or nuanced. They get their target audiences going though. Spun up with shares. Carrying water for someone else's agenda. We're all being farmed in a way I think. Glance at my FB feed 3 posts in today... Crops are plentiful at the moment... 

 

 

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On 6/22/2017 at 04:16, kuya said:

But Joan,one of  the reasons we even have a nation is because we had access to better weapons (kentucky long rifles) than the average redcoat we were shooting against. They had these black busses i think they were called that were only good for shooting at a line of soldiers. We were almost invaded by japan in ww2 but they quickly realized that america was so well armed that submission would be impossible.   That argument is what is driving the 2nd amendment folks and its true. Give up our personal weapons and we give up any way of truly protecting our freedom. 

 

I just noticed this. Sadly, Kuya, I think everything here is based on a myth.

 

The reason you won the war of independence was ... the French. Even though we Brits were at war elsewhere and our sub-standard soldiers were vastly outnumbered, the Americans were being defeated until the French stepped in. http://www.cracked.com/article_20306_5-myths-about-revolutionary-war-everyone-believes.html

 

Japan never had any serious plans to invade the USA in WW2. Their ambitions were in the Asia-Pacific region and they didn't think they could take Hawaii, let alone the entire USA. It would require a navy far greater than they ever had. They certainly didn't give a damn about some armed civilians.

 

So, who are you protecting your freedom from? The rest of the free world? And how free are you... really? You have laws about how to cross a road and you can't even enjoy a beer on the beach. I don't feel very free whenever I go there, for sure.

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2 hours ago, Alistair S said:

 

So, who are you protecting your freedom from? The rest of the free world? And how free are you... really? You have laws about how to cross a road and you can't even enjoy a beer on the beach. I don't feel very free whenever I go there, for sure.

 

The answer is simple..........from all threats, foreign and domestic!

These debates/arguments boil down to fundamental differences in our beliefs.

It has been discussed for a long time now...........and in today's climate, I am even more convinced that I am safer with a fully functioning 2nd Amendment and all the associated, and fully loaded hardware.

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58 minutes ago, HoboSage said:

 

 

The first is guidance - not law! It's mainly to teach children some road safety :)

 

Your second link is about local attempts to control Welsh people. They're a law unto themselves! 

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6 hours ago, Ironknee said:

The answer is simple..........from all threats, foreign and domestic!

These debates/arguments boil down to fundamental differences in our beliefs.

It has been discussed for a long time now...........and in today's climate, I am even more convinced that I am safer with a fully functioning 2nd Amendment and all the associated, and fully loaded hardware.

 

And that's fine! I wasn't arguing against the second amendment. I was arguing about what happened during the revolutionary war and WWII (and whether the second amendment has much to do with protecting freedom).

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20 minutes ago, Alistair S said:

 

And that's fine! I wasn't arguing against the second amendment. I was arguing about what happened during the revolutionary war and WWII (and whether the second amendment has much to do with protecting freedom).

Well...there is the history of Churchill's England, during the war, and at his request, receiving our American guns....from farmers, factory workers, and the like, because we in America have the 2nd Amendment affording the rights to bear arms.

And thank God that we were able to send those guns!

And we will do it again, if necessary!!  :D

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18 minutes ago, Ironknee said:

Well...there is the history of Churchill's England, during the war, and at his request, receiving our American guns....from farmers, factory workers, and the like, because we in America have the 2nd Amendment affording the rights to bear arms.

And thank God that we were able to send those guns!

And we will do it again, if necessary!!  :D

 

I think you will find that what you sent was mostly food, vehicles and other equipment - which was very welcome (and which we have now paid for in full). I don't think you can claim that the US arms industry is a result of the second amendment as much as the result of the second world war.

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Alistair, 

       You are correct.   The French were instrumental in our war of independence. Our Kentucky long rifles were a real nuisance to the British, who were by no means a second rate army, but they didn't determine the outcome.  The French help is what put us over the top. Battle of Yorktown, I think. Plus the French navy running the blockades.  And the major European war, of which our war of independence was a small theater of operation is also largely downplayed in our classrooms. The British had their hands full. 

        As for Japan, no they didn't seriously consider an invasion of the west coast. They almost instantly realized the futility of trying. They did however attempt to take the Aleutian islands in Alaska, kept one or two for awhile, and succeeded in taking Philippines, and Guam too I believe, American posessions at the time.  In America the instrumentality of France is downplayed. As is the same for USSR in WW2. History is fascinating. 

       

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2 hours ago, kuya said:

History is fascinating. 

 

Yes, I agree! Thank you for coming back :)

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10 hours ago, Alistair S said:

 

I think you will find that what you sent was mostly food, vehicles and other equipment - which was very welcome (and which we have now paid for in full). I don't think you can claim that the US arms industry is a result of the second amendment as much as the result of the second world war.

 

I was never a History major in college, but I did take American and World History classes. And Americans responded hugely with arms and munitions. But, I guess we were all taught different things in school.

For easy references, there are many stories and testimonies, on the internet, that substantiate these events in history. Stories of Brits returning guns to the American owners (thru the mail) with much thanks and gratitude. So I don't know why you would think that the 2nd Amendment, that clearly allows citizens to possess firearms, didn't contribute to your war effort. Had your citizenry possed firearms of their own we wouldn't be discussing this.

Anyways, whether we believe in the 2nd Amendment, or not, it doesn't make cause to act out violently, nor does it mitigate the circumstances of violence. I am one that does not believe that the ends justifying the means.

 

And as far as the "food, vehicles and other equipment - which was very welcome (and which we have now paid for in full)".........I'm glad to hear it :D

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Just now, Ironknee said:

 

Anyways, whether we believe in the 2nd Amendment, or not, it doesn't make cause to act out violently, nor does it mitigate the circumstances of violence. I am one that does not believe that the ends justifying the means.

 

 

Me neither. Happy to agree on that :)

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If songwriters ruled the world there might be more harmony. 

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4 hours ago, kuya said:

If songwriters ruled the world there might be more harmony. 

Is Rap actually songwriting....and would they qualify to rule the world?:o

 

:D-T

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16 hours ago, Alistair S said:

 

I think you will find that what you sent was mostly food, vehicles and other equipment - which was very welcome (and which we have now paid for in full). I don't think you can claim that the US arms industry is a result of the second amendment as much as the result of the second world war.

 

I think you will find that what you sent was mostly food, vehicles and other equipment - which was very welcome (and which we have now paid for in full). I don't think you can claim that the US arms industry is a result of the second amendment as much as the result of the second world war.

 

We can argue about what was sent but bottom line is we sent men, arms and equipment to fight the invading German army.  I beg to differ with you regarding the build up of the US arms industry.  If not for the second amendment our arms industry would not have advanced to where it is today.  Men like Colt or Browning would not have taken a muzzle loading single shot firearm to a cartridge loading multiple shot weapon.  Gatling would not have invented the first machine gun. The second amendment opened up this whole industry of creating a useful, effective and economic way for Americans to own guns.  I dare say what have the Brits designed or created in terms of firearms as the result of ww2?  Without America's foresight of building the second amendment into the Constitution and America's love of freedom Europe might be just be a huge Germany.  

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Of course writing rap is writing a song.  But, if rappers ruled the world, I don't think they'd care about harmony.  :)

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Back to the topic.  I gave kudos to Sanders for condemning the shooting of Republican lawmakers.  Sadly, but not surprisingly, I must revoke those kudos after hearing what he said just a few days after his fake condemnation. He could not hide his evil intentions by morphing back into his attack mode against Trump by calling on people to take down the President.  The left wing rhetoric against a duly elected President continues and I'm afraid may lead to more crazies doing crazy things. 

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2 hours ago, Ironknee said:

Is Rap actually songwriting.

 

Seriously? Some of these guys are amazingly talented and skilled writers. Whatayou live on an Island?

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17 hours ago, Barneyboy said:

 

I think you will find that what you sent was mostly food, vehicles and other equipment - which was very welcome (and which we have now paid for in full). I don't think you can claim that the US arms industry is a result of the second amendment as much as the result of the second world war.

 

We can argue about what was sent but bottom line is we sent men, arms and equipment to fight the invading German army.  I beg to differ with you regarding the build up of the US arms industry.  If not for the second amendment our arms industry would not have advanced to where it is today.  Men like Colt or Browning would not have taken a muzzle loading single shot firearm to a cartridge loading multiple shot weapon.  Gatling would not have invented the first machine gun. The second amendment opened up this whole industry of creating a useful, effective and economic way for Americans to own guns.  I dare say what have the Brits designed or created in terms of firearms as the result of ww2?  Without America's foresight of building the second amendment into the Constitution and America's love of freedom Europe might be just be a huge Germany.  

 

It's an interesting idea, Barneyboy, but do you have any evidence to support it?

 

At the start of the war in Europe, the USA was really not geared up for war or for arms production - despite the second amendment. Congress had been cutting military expenditure for years, the army had no tanks and there was no appetite to get involved in what was happening in Europe. What the USA did have was a strong industrial base, especially around vehicles and agriculture.

 

Roosevelt called in Willian Knudsen, who helped transform US industry to focus on supplying the things needed by those fighting - aircraft, trucks, radios, etc. Unlike WW1, when US soldiers mostly used British and French weapons, they used their own in WW2.

 

Yes, guns were also produced in the USA, but we didn't really use them. The UK did look at the M1 but rejected it, sticking with the Lee Enfield. Some Thompson sub-machine guns were issued, but these were replaced with sten guns. The main machine gun used by the Brits was the Bren. 

 

It may puzzle you to know that the UK is the second largest arms dealer in the world (behind the USA). Of course, you may think this is because, until very shortly before the war, we had no real legislative controls over carrying weapons.

 

As an aside, I don't know where the idea of the "invading German army" comes from - unless you meant invading Yugoslavia or somewhere. The Battle of Britain had been won before the USA joined the war and we were defeating the Germans in North Africa. Mind you, Europe might have ended up a huge Russia - who knows?

 

There is plenty to say about the second amendment but I don't see any evidence to support the view that it won WW2 because it enabled weapons production. There could be an argument that it provided a better soldier- because there is evidence that prior experience with firearms makes for a more effective soldier who is more likely to survive. 

 

Anyway, maybe this is taking the thread too far off track?

 

 

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9 hours ago, Alistair S said:

 

It's an interesting idea, Barneyboy, but do you have any evidence to support it?

 

At the start of the war in Europe, the USA was really not geared up for war or for arms production - despite the second amendment. Congress had been cutting military expenditure for years, the army had no tanks and there was no appetite to get involved in what was happening in Europe. What the USA did have was a strong industrial base, especially around vehicles and agriculture.

 

Roosevelt called in Willian Knudsen, who helped transform US industry to focus on supplying the things needed by those fighting - aircraft, trucks, radios, etc. Unlike WW1, when US soldiers mostly used British and French weapons, they used their own in WW2.

 

Yes, guns were also produced in the USA, but we didn't really use them. The UK did look at the M1 but rejected it, sticking with the Lee Enfield. Some Thompson sub-machine guns were issued, but these were replaced with sten guns. The main machine gun used by the Brits was the Bren. 

 

It may puzzle you to know that the UK is the second largest arms dealer in the world (behind the USA). Of course, you may think this is because, until very shortly before the war, we had no real legislative controls over carrying weapons.

 

As an aside, I don't know where the idea of the "invading German army" comes from - unless you meant invading Yugoslavia or somewhere. The Battle of Britain had been won before the USA joined the war and we were defeating the Germans in North Africa. Mind you, Europe might have ended up a huge Russia - who knows?

 

There is plenty to say about the second amendment but I don't see any evidence to support the view that it won WW2 because it enabled weapons production. There could be an argument that it provided a better soldier- because there is evidence that prior experience with firearms makes for a more effective soldier who is more likely to survive. 

 

Anyway, maybe this is taking the thread too far off track?

 

 

I gave you evidence in the form of Colt, Browning and Gatling. If not for the 2nd amendment and the gun entrepreneurship of Americans we would still be stuck with the Brits muskets. We had the strongest standing navy and air force even before the war started.  True, our ground game was a bit neglected courtesy of the liberal Roosevelt who preferred social hand out programs at the expense of our military.  We already owned the market for small arms production pre-war with the Thompson sub-machine gun and semi-autos. Remember, the Japanese were afraid to bring the war to the States because they knew Americans were heavily armed, thank you 2nd amendment. Ali, really an Enfiled vs a Garand?  A bolt action rifle vs a semi-auto fully convertible to auto?  The Brits only got into the arms game post war, no argument, but that was out of necessity due to the destruction reigned upon them by Germany. Good for the Brits. Maybe I was watching too many war movies about the bombing of London, the sirens blasting every time Germany sent a rocket and all the bombed out London buildings.  Didn't the Germans occupy France with their eyes on England until the Americans came to the rescue?  Can't we even get a thank you?  I hope you will agree that when you are at war amendments don't apply.  You are stating something completely different than what you originally quoted below. I am saying the second amendment and the growth of the arms industry existed long before WW2. Without that amendment we probably would not have been in a position to fight and win wars.  Yes, this is off topic but I felt it was important enough for me to address. Shall we move this to another thread to continue the discussion?

 

Now, back on topic.  What do you think about Johnny Depp and now Jon Cusack calling for the assassination of President Trump?  Are they not just as guilty if some of their lunatic fringe take them up in plotting an assassination? 

 

 

9 hours ago, Alistair S said:

I don't think you can claim that the US arms industry is a result of the second amendment as much as the result of the second world war.

 

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21 minutes ago, Barneyboy said:

if some of their lunatic fringe take them up in plotting an assassination? 

 

Oh, no, not John Cusack! Please don't tell me he went off and joined the lunatic fringe. I'm so disappointed. He's my favorite actor. Who could ever forget "Hot Tub Time Machine." Say it ain't so, John, say it ain't so.

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Political hate. Is it political only or is it something much deeper and if it is political hate then why? Why is this happening now at this time in our history?  What is going on and why?  Why is the rhetoric so vitriolic these days? Why are so many of us hellbent on winning the argument?  Is it due to ideological differences?  Economics?  Culture or lack of it? Money culture?  Culture void of anything other than making money and competing? Culture void of spirituality?  Special interests? Globalization? Individualism gone overboard? Is it because of technology and a sense of empowerment that it gives so many?  I can say or do anything with the push of a button on my phone, laptop or desktop PC, or android, Iphone, tablet etc, etc and as a result there is no restraint. Is it an addiction, an obsession, a neurotic compulsion many are not aware of just to have one's say to the point of intolerance for any and all who aren't on the same channel? Or.......Is it something else?

 

Instead of bickering back and forth we should be approaching the subject at a deeper level and trying to understand what is going on and why. I tend to think this is a global phenomena, that is not merely restricted to the United States but is certainly pronounced and more vocal here due to our culture which prides self expression which is good.  So, why is this happening? Why the polarization?  Not that we're going to solve the problems but maybe if the approach to the subject matter were different, we could then find some commonality to repair the damage that is being done not only in the US but in other countries as well.  Because until we start to look at the root cause of the illness rather than the symptoms, the problems we're witnessing will only get worse. 

 

 I don't profess to have the answers but I'm open to hearing what others think and why. 

 

Just some thoughts.

 

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I think natural selection tells us that a healthy society needs a robust share of both conservatives and liberals, that we are supposed to share work and power within the same families, neighborhoods and workplaces. So that our temperaments and outlooks will enable us to specialize in a large variety of vocations. Also, that conservatives exist to keep society from degenerating, and that liberals exist to keep society from stagnating. Put another way -- and this is not an original thought -- that conservatives clean up the mess that liberals make in forcing civilization to advance. Or if you prefer, God made me liberal, and God doesn’t make mistakes. And I think most people are comfortable with that basic sentiment, or have been until lately. Conservatives might get along better-than-fine with their liberal shrinks and their kids' guidance counselors, and liberals might get along just as well with their conservative accountants and electricians, when it lines up that way.

 

When you need a lawyer, you don't seek out one who agrees with you politically, but the one who won that big settlement for your brother.-in-law. But I think people tend to be adamant that whichever way they lean politically, that their own side should hold more power than the other. Like most people, I want the politicians who represent me to share my basic view of the world. Obviously, I get that conservatives want that for themselves too. We can’t change one another’s minds. Liberals can't blather on to conservatives about why we think they should turn liberal. A light switch isn't going to become a ukulele. All we can do is try to defeat them on election day as they try to defeat us. But however any new laws are made and whether old laws survive, the purpose of the laws should be to make life better for all of us, not just their biggest donors. Congress is supposed to enact laws to promote the general welfare of the people. All the people, including the ones who voted against them. This Congress, these day, seems like people who are only in it for themselves. Oh, they'll say, "I'm everybody's Senator," but you wouldn't know it from the laws they sponsor and the way they vote. They act like they're somebody's bitch, is how they look to me.

 

The political hatred we all deplore feels like it comes from a place of contempt, or fear, or both. We used to have to get along with whoever life threw us in with. But as we got more mobile we have been able to surround ourselves instead with people who resonate on our own wavelengths. This makes our real-world relationships seem more dispensable. With our electronic devices we have the option of spending more and more of our time hanging out with people who agree with us and who tell us they think we're clever and good. Which emboldens us to haul off and spit out some harsh and reckless and damaging opinions to some of the people we know best. If you're conservative, I might say I basically think you are wrong because your outlook does not reflect the way I see the world. That the politicians you admire are lying to us all, and that you’re buying it. That I'm afraid that if your power grows in that wrongness of yours, you and your kind will become more dangerous. You might think the same of me, and people who believe what I do. I'm just not convinced that every single issue that comes up in the political sphere has to be tied in with identity politics. Abortion didn't used to be a conservative/liberal issue. It's kind of recent -- since the "sexual revolution" -- that it has become so. Before that, conservative women were as likely as liberal women to jump off tables or hurl themselves down stairs or ask a friend of a friend for a referral when they needed to break the law. And, for crying out loud, we all want lower taxes. It just comes down to what we are willing to give up that taxes currently pay for. We all want affordable health care. So how much more are we are willing to pay in taxes to make that happen? Do we have a problem with our own contributions paying for the care of others? Health care has always worked that way, shared risk spread out over the covered population. Why is that only a problem when tax dollars would be paying for it? We are paying for it already, in higher premiums and higher hospital bills to cover the care of uninsured patients whose illness and injury we all absorb. And in the raises we don't get when our bosses tell us that premiums have gone up so much they can't afford to give us raises this year.

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Thanks for responding to my question and thoughts, Joan. You're the only one thus far who has. Makes me think most here are more interested in responding to the usual ping pong match when the dialogue gets ugly, takes shots and or folks are merely trying to prove each other wrong with the things they say.  You made some reference to "fear".  Yeah, I can see that too.  You also made mention of electronic devices, technology.  Hmm. Seems to me, the more technologically advanced we get, the more we're losing our humanity for one another.  Not, to say there isn't a lot of good going on out there because there is, but we don't get to see a lot of it reflected through our media. 

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43 minutes ago, spanishbuddha said:

Thanks for responding to my question and thoughts, Joan. You're the only one thus far who has. Makes me think most here are more interested in responding to the usual ping pong match when the dialogue gets ugly, takes shots and or folks are merely trying to prove each other wrong with the things they say.  You made some reference to "fear".  Yeah, I can see that too.  You also made mention of electronic devices, technology.  Hmm. Seems to me, the more technologically advanced we get, the more we're losing our humanity for one another.  Not, to say there isn't a lot of good going on out there because there is, but we don't get to see a lot of it reflected through our media. 

 

Sorry Carl...I'd love to respond, but I can't get the words out in this post.......computer problems!

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