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Is it just me or have others noticed the sarcasm and outright arrogance in the responses by some whenever a real critique is posted on one of their creations - most notably in the lyrics feedback section.  I have personal experience as some have accused me of trolling and to stop critiquing their posts because my comments are useless. Maybe they are but at least I have taken the time to leave my thoughts.  Perhaps those who are overly sensitive should accompany their posts with a tag line of "only positive comments are welcome."

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Im happy to respond. However, let me preface my remarks by stating that these are my observations as they relate to your question. So do keep in mind that you requested people on this site to respond to your post. Additionally, don’t misconstrue my observations as an attack or disparagement of you. Rather, receive them as an honest and forthright response. Also know that I’m not looking for you to agree with or refute anything I say. Additionally, I will not involve myself in a long drawn out conversation regarding my statements nor will I respond to any further statements from you or anyone else regarding this post. Hopefully you will receive my thoughts and observations with an open mind and in a non-reactive manner.

 

To begin, I think the problem is at the very least two-fold. Number one, I believe that you have done yourself somewhat of a disservice through the vigorous and aggressive manner in which you promote and defend your political and social views. It seems to me that you delight in stirring up the hornets’ nest by presenting your views in a manner that is intentionally meant to be controversial and to get a reaction...much like the above statement you posted. Your style of writing appears to be purposely passive aggressive, insulting and discounting (example: Perhaps those who are overly sensitive should accompany their posts with a tag line of "only positive comments are welcome.") and leaves little room for actual discussion or the moderate and friendly exchange of differing opinions. Personally I could care less what anyone’s political views are but it is apparent to me that you care quite a bit and will go out of your way to strongly, and as I have noticed at times, bullishly promote yours or defend them if you perceive that someone has a differing opinion than you do.

 

Moving on...

I have read many of your critiques and have been the recipient of some. I do find your critiques to be engaging, comical, insightful and frequently utterly mind-boggling. Your manner in presenting critiques is oftentimes brusque and clipped. You have cultivated a style in your presentation that is very off-putting. At times you seems to skim the surface of lyrics without delving into them... as if the “smell” of some of them cause you to recoil. It appears to me that you make snap judgements about lyrics you don’t understand and when a writer questions you or disagrees with something you may have said you tend to become both defensive and aggressive... a very unattractive trait to deal with for those seeking assistance. Also, I am often surprised by what I can only define as your “literalness.” Many times I have read a critique of yours where you discount a line or metaphor because you can’t conceive of it in the real world. Many lyrics live in the world of imagination and dreams and it seems to me that sometimes you have difficulty navigating that world.

 

I will also clearly state that I have read some remarkably insightful and helpful critiques from you and have personally received some very kind and helpful suggestions. I will also say that I enjoy reading your comments, they make me laugh and remind me of things my older brother might say... he’s extraordinarily bull-headed but quite congenial when he chooses to be.

 

As creative people we are all bound by a desire to express and explore our inner worlds and experiences. Many of us live emotionally precarious lives and are easily tipped over or off balance by events around us. An unkind word, a thoughtless slight or simply a lyric critique presented in manner that what we may perceive as hostile and belittling is frequently all it takes to make us hurt and doubt ourselves.

 

I believe you are a good person with a good heart and that you are sincere in wanting to assist people on this site to become better writers. But sometimes, Barney, for reasons that only you know, I have witnessed through your comments a desire to strike out at people and to knowingly and intentionally say things that are calculated to hurt... and that is not a good thing.

 

I can say these things because I have been guilty of them myself. There are words I’ve written to others that I regret. I have been coarse and insulting when I should have been supportive and helpful. I am here to learn, not to boost my ego at the expense of others... and this is a lesson I relearn day in and day out.

 

You started out this post with the lines “Is it just me or have others noticed the sarcasm and outright arrogance in the responses by some whenever a real critique is posted on one of their creations...” and I would simply close with the thought that a “real” critique has many voices and many styles and that at the heart of it we are all striving to find our way, improve our skills and carry on. So, take a deep breath and do the best you can to be helpful, open and friendly, even in the face of adversity.

 

 

 

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Ok, I get on some people's nerves, I'm not a nice guy, what I lack in diplomacy I make up in straight talk I get all that but my post post was not meant to be about me.  I have noticed some hard feeling retorts from some who didn't like a certain critique - that is the thrust of my post.  Either that is a good sign that people are finally leaving legitimate critiques or people have thin skins.  My inclination is the latter because I did not see where the critiques were out of line.  I may be the exception as people feel some of mine are incendiary and have asked me to keep away.  Fine, leave that aside but look at some of the responses to crits from others.  If you want me to cite specific examples I can.  I'm not stirring the pot I'm simply making an observation.

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LOL  You are two peas in the same pod.  My advice: (1) take your meds as prescribed; (2) resist your desire for self-imposed melodrama and stop taking yourselves and this site so seriously; and, (3) LAUGH, like I'm doing right now at both of you. :)

 

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10 hours ago, EmilyEmily said:

As creative people we are all bound by a desire to express and explore our inner worlds and experiences. Many of us live emotionally precarious lives and are easily tipped over or off balance by events around us. An unkind word, a thoughtless slight or simply a lyric critique presented in manner that what we may perceive as hostile and belittling is frequently all it takes to make us hurt and doubt ourselves.

 

Wonderfully expressed.

 

10 hours ago, EmilyEmily said:

I can say these things because I have been guilty of them myself. There are words I’ve written to others that I regret. I have been coarse and insulting when I should have been supportive and helpful. I am here to learn, not to boost my ego at the expense of others... and this is a lesson I relearn day in and day out.

 

Whether people use anger, insult or discounting humor, I think lots of us are guilty at one time or another in not taking the time to make a genuine effort to understand different points of view or at the very least if we don't understand them to be gracious enough to keep our thoughts to ourselves.

 

12 hours ago, Barneyboy said:

Is it just me or have others noticed the sarcasm and outright arrogance in the responses by some whenever a real critique is posted

 

A very valid point.

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haha - can't help thinking you're talking about me Barneyboy :)
Well, I make no apologies for asking you not to post reviews on my lyrics. As I said at the time - I don't find them particularly helpful and don't want you to waste your time. I don't dislike you or your political views and if you really do like "straight talk" as you claim, you will accept that.

What annoys me is when you or others start critiquing the critiques on someone else' thread or an OP's response to a critique.
We're all adults here so capable of dealing with differing opinions. If a reviewer doesn't like the OP's reaction to his critique, he has the option of not trying to help that writer in the future, and of course if a post is offensive you have the option to report it.

 

BTW - Emily - I agree with your post verbatim - well said :)!

 

Paul

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OK....heres my take.

It really doesn't matter what we all think.

It's all in fun..........if you don't like what someone is telling you, it's ok to state that very feeling.

It's also ok to ask someone to not comment on ones work...... IT'S OK:D

 

We all must do what feels right. This isn't a job....it isn't that important folks! 

What is important is that we all have as much fun as we can on this site.

 

Pretty simple........but, remember.......big brother is always watching :wub:

 

 

 

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On 5/3/2017 at 19:52, EmilyEmily said:

Im happy to respond. However, let me preface my remarks by stating that these are my observations as they relate to your question. So do keep in mind that you requested people on this site to respond to your post. Additionally, don’t misconstrue my observations as an attack or disparagement of you. Rather, receive them as an honest and forthright response. Also know that I’m not looking for you to agree with or refute anything I say. Additionally, I will not involve myself in a long drawn out conversation regarding my statements nor will I respond to any further statements from you or anyone else regarding this post. Hopefully you will receive my thoughts and observations with an open mind and in a non-reactive manner.

 

To begin, I think the problem is at the very least two-fold. Number one, I believe that you have done yourself somewhat of a disservice through the vigorous and aggressive manner in which you promote and defend your political and social views. It seems to me that you delight in stirring up the hornets’ nest by presenting your views in a manner that is intentionally meant to be controversial and to get a reaction...much like the above statement you posted. Your style of writing appears to be purposely passive aggressive, insulting and discounting (example: Perhaps those who are overly sensitive should accompany their posts with a tag line of "only positive comments are welcome.") and leaves little room for actual discussion or the moderate and friendly exchange of differing opinions. Personally I could care less what anyone’s political views are but it is apparent to me that you care quite a bit and will go out of your way to strongly, and as I have noticed at times, bullishly promote yours or defend them if you perceive that someone has a differing opinion than you do.

 

Moving on...

I have read many of your critiques and have been the recipient of some. I do find your critiques to be engaging, comical, insightful and frequently utterly mind-boggling. Your manner in presenting critiques is oftentimes brusque and clipped. You have cultivated a style in your presentation that is very off-putting. At times you seems to skim the surface of lyrics without delving into them... as if the “smell” of some of them cause you to recoil. It appears to me that you make snap judgements about lyrics you don’t understand and when a writer questions you or disagrees with something you may have said you tend to become both defensive and aggressive... a very unattractive trait to deal with for those seeking assistance. Also, I am often surprised by what I can only define as your “literalness.” Many times I have read a critique of yours where you discount a line or metaphor because you can’t conceive of it in the real world. Many lyrics live in the world of imagination and dreams and it seems to me that sometimes you have difficulty navigating that world.

 

I will also clearly state that I have read some remarkably insightful and helpful critiques from you and have personally received some very kind and helpful suggestions. I will also say that I enjoy reading your comments, they make me laugh and remind me of things my older brother might say... he’s extraordinarily bull-headed but quite congenial when he chooses to be.

 

As creative people we are all bound by a desire to express and explore our inner worlds and experiences. Many of us live emotionally precarious lives and are easily tipped over or off balance by events around us. An unkind word, a thoughtless slight or simply a lyric critique presented in manner that what we may perceive as hostile and belittling is frequently all it takes to make us hurt and doubt ourselves.

 

I believe you are a good person with a good heart and that you are sincere in wanting to assist people on this site to become better writers. But sometimes, Barney, for reasons that only you know, I have witnessed through your comments a desire to strike out at people and to knowingly and intentionally say things that are calculated to hurt... and that is not a good thing.

 

I can say these things because I have been guilty of them myself. There are words I’ve written to others that I regret. I have been coarse and insulting when I should have been supportive and helpful. I am here to learn, not to boost my ego at the expense of others... and this is a lesson I relearn day in and day out.

 

You started out this post with the lines “Is it just me or have others noticed the sarcasm and outright arrogance in the responses by some whenever a real critique is posted on one of their creations...” and I would simply close with the thought that a “real” critique has many voices and many styles and that at the heart of it we are all striving to find our way, improve our skills and carry on. So, take a deep breath and do the best you can to be helpful, open and friendly, even in the face of adversity.

 

 

 

I can easily respond with a snarky remark like, thank you Dr. Emily, but I am above such pettiness.  Your response speaks for itself and only confirms the arrogance and, in this case, the self righteousness of people who feel a need to psycho-analyze people who post.  Please cite examples where I have been the instigator in aggressive responses to a writer who disagrees with my comments. My responses have been in kind to how the writer responded to me.

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6 hours ago, Barneyboy said:

Please cite examples where I have been the instigator in aggressive responses to a writer who disagrees with my comments. My responses have been in kind to how the writer responded to me.

There are numerous examples, Bob.

I don't plan on wasting time to dig them up, but let's not pretend they are non-existent.

Please.

 

You, on the other hand, must have examples at your fingertips of "sarcasm and outright arrogance in the responses by some whenever a real critique is posted on one of their creations" - otherwise your opening post would be meaningless. No?

 

I am genuinely interested in seeing those.

I am genuinely interested in what it is you consider a "real critique".

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14 hours ago, Lazz said:

There are numerous examples, Bob.

I don't plan on wasting time to dig them up, but let's not pretend they are non-existent.

Please.

 

You, on the other hand, must have examples at your fingertips of "sarcasm and outright arrogance in the responses by some whenever a real critique is posted on one of their creations" - otherwise your opening post would be meaningless. No?

 

I am genuinely interested in seeing those.

I am genuinely interested in what it is you consider a "real critique".

  On 5/3/2017 at 14:52, Malice95 said:

For me Its a nice poem but there's a difference between poems and lyric writing.

 

Thanks for the lecture in lyric writing.

I'm looking forward to hearing some of your songs :)

 

Thanks for asking, Lazz.  Here's a recent example of a real critique and the sarcastic response. Now, being the gentlemen that we are can you cite just one of the numerous examples of where I have responded with sarcasm or arrogance to a critique given to me? Oh, by the way, your friend, Paul, provided this gem in response to an absolutely valid critique. 

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2 hours ago, Barneyboy said:

There are numerous examples, Bob.

I don't plan on wasting time to dig them up, but let's not pretend they are non-existent.

Please.

 

I re-post the above because you don't appear to have understood the first time.

 

And forgive me but I don't see any "real" critique.

Why not post a link to it so I can read it for myself?

Thanks

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2 hours ago, Barneyboy said:

Oh, by the way, your friend, Paul, provided this gem

 

Why do you do this kind of shit, Bob?

I just don't get it.

 

What the fuck would my relationship with Paul - even if it existed - have to do with anything? 

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5 hours ago, Barneyboy said:
  On 5/3/2017 at 14:52, Malice95 said:

For me Its a nice poem but there's a difference between poems and lyric writing.

 

Thanks for the lecture in lyric writing.

I'm looking forward to hearing some of your songs :)

 

Thanks for asking, Lazz.  Here's a recent example of a real critique and the sarcastic response. Now, being the gentlemen that we are can you cite just one of the numerous examples of where I have responded with sarcasm or arrogance to a critique given to me? Oh, by the way, your friend, Paul, provided this gem in response to an absolutely valid critique. 

 

Hey Bob - glad you liked that one - yes, I don't suffer fools I'll admit :) .. one of the reasons I asked you not to comment on my stuff :) Why don't you stick to your own knitting and stop trying to be the forum police?

 

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9 hours ago, Lazz said:

 

I re-post the above because you don't appear to have understood the first time.

 

And forgive me but I don't see any "real" critique.

Why not post a link to it so I can read it for myself?.......I posted the real crit and you didn't like it, I gather.  Well, who made you the arbiter of real crits? 

Thanks

Ok, so you can't find any and just do your usual blabbering cause you have nothing better to do. 

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9 hours ago, Lazz said:

 

Why do you do this kind of shit, Bob?

I just don't get it.

 

What the fuck would my relationship with Paul - even if it existed - have to do with anything? 

You stuck your nose into my business and got it bloodied.  Not my problem.  You don't like my shit then don't smell it.

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6 hours ago, PaulCanuck said:

 

Hey Bob - glad you liked that one - yes, I don't suffer fools I'll admit :) .. one of the reasons I asked you not to comment on my stuff :) Why don't you stick to your own knitting and stop trying to be the forum police?

 

Aw. did I hit a nerve, Paul?  Since you're not doing your job as a mod I thought I'd lend you a hand. Unfortunately, by so doing, I had to to expose you as one of the sour grapes.

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  On 3/18/2017 at 13:59, Lazz said:

 

Me neither.

 

But it is still good and helpful, I believe, for a lyric (or any work, for that matter) to be critiqued on its merits.

 

 

 

..and one of it's most important merits (IMHO) is whether people can emotionally relate and connect to it.

 

  On 3/18/2017 at 09:27, Lazz said:

Critique is the important bit - where we try and help people do whatever they're doing better

Paul said:

.. and some of us have attempted to do that in this thread.

Seems you're more interested in critiquing our critiques than offering any help advice to the OP.

 

Now, here's an interesting exchange between Paul and Lazz.  Sorry, don't know how to do the exact quote thing so this is my best effort. 

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7 minutes ago, Barneyboy said:

don't know how to do the exact quote thing so this is my best effort.

 

I have trouble with that also.

 

My recall of the context is that Paul and I were butting heads - and maybe not for the first time.

My sense of our opposition - and his view will likely be different - is that Paul is irritated by folks who critique the critiques rather than the work while I tend to get irritated by poor misleading nonsense given in the guise of critique.  So, whatever the lyric was that we argued about, and whatever this orphaned "Me neither" referred to, this is more clearly (I think) how the exchange went down:

 

Lazz said - "it is still good and helpful, I believe, for a lyric (or any work, for that matter) to be critiqued on its merits".

Paul said - "..and one of it's most important merits (IMHO) is whether people can emotionally relate and connect to it".

Lazz said - "Critique is the important bit - where we try and help people do whatever they're doing better.

Paul said - ".. and some of us have attempted to do that in this thread.

                 Seems you're more interested in critiquing our critiques than offering any help advice to the OP."

Lazz said -  "Seems like you're more interested in avoiding the issue."

 

To me (maybe not to Paul) "the issue" was a charge of sanctimony which I had levelled against him earlier in our scuffle.

 

Can you please take the time to explain your reasons for (partial) posting of our exchange, Bob?

What is its significance for you?

In this context?

 

Bob said - "You stuck your nose into my business and got it bloodied.  Not my problem.  You don't like my shit then don't smell it."

 

I am never impressed by your bullshit triumphalist bluster habit.  But I am grateful that in your recent incarnation here you make us suffer much less of it.   Posts from your new guy are much more reasonably rational and coherent than those from your previous dude.  Plus, your new guy is at least taking a stab at lyrics of his own.  That's all terrific.  But when that other old guy bursts back in and makes a mess that stinks up the place again it is my business, OUR business, that he's poking his anus into.  Bring the new guy back, please.

 

Bob said - "I'm not a nice guy"

Now, there are a number of people here who know that is simply not true.

There are enough examples of kindness and support that come from your direction to seriously confuse many of us about why you present this wicked Mr Hyde side with such enthusiasm when it is such patent bullshit.  Is it fear, Bob?  Of what?  I just wish you would stop it

 

But back to the beginning, where Bob said

"have others noticed the sarcasm and outright arrogance in the responses by some whenever a real critique is posted on one of their creations - most notably in the lyrics feedback section(?)"

 

And Lazz responds:

"No.  I haven't noticed that, Bob.  But it sure sounds like a problem.

Would you care to point out some examples for me so that I can follow what you're talking about?

Thank you"

 

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