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Jason Kalman

Song Comp Discussion (2011 - 2012)

233 posts in this topic

More worms.. One of the issues with ranking the songs like a chart is when there are collabs involved. That's where it gets more complicated and the reason why contestants get an average of their scores, I know that system is not perfect (as Alistair may point out) but at least if gives the opportunity for more people to take part. So there will be no ranking/scoring of your own song.

One of the things confusing the issue here is all the other stuff that is being thrown into the mix e.g. lyric comps, genre comps

I just want the the Monthly Song Comps to be as fair, open and to include as many people as possible, It's too messy to start taking into account other comps. Basically the choice is:

Keep it as it is (yes or no)

If yes, maybe some minor tweaks

If no, then

rank songs in order (which anyone could do now if the wished)

name top 3 only (or variation on this)

both these later options have a sting in the tail as far as collabs go

I was hoping that there would be more support for continuing the way it is, I'm getting the feeling some want change for change's sake

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I was hoping that there would be more support for continuing the way it is, I'm getting the feeling some want change for change's sake

I'm for leaving as is. It's not broke.

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I was hoping that there would be more support for continuing the way it is, I'm getting the feeling some want change for change's sake

I'm for leaving as is. It's not broke.

Same here. Leave it all alone.

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I do have an enhancement suggestion that want to run it past a couple of people first. And it will be more in line with ranking the songs against each other, so we can move away from low scores meaning a song is bad.

Another vote for keeping it as it is, but I'm also for trialling this ^^^^^.

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I have no problem with the system as is. The better songs always end up on top based on a general consensus.

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First, I'd like to say that the current scoring system is the best we've had yet. I'm all for keeping it! But Nige contacted me in regards to another idea (since we are the dynamic duo of Full Song Comp and the 1+1) which has some appeal as well. I'll let him tell you about it! :)

I don't know why some feel the need for an absolute definition of what each numbered score means! The scoring system as it is now, with the upper and lower parameter defined, gives great liberty to the individual scorer. They can go with their gut, base their scores on their own personal preference, score the entries relative to one another, or examine multiple song criteria that person looks for or favors - and it's ALL GOOD! We have a variety of people here - why not allow for a variety of approaches within the upper and lower parameter! If someone sent in a score of 12 or a score of -3, that scorecard would be invalid. (Well, with the exception of FunkDaddy's - I usually make him resubmit his. ;) hehehe) I think it will limit the appeal of entrants and scorers if they are defined so stringently. And quite frankly, there is no way to police that sort of thing - and who the H3LL would WANT to anyway??? :blink:

5. Have a contest schedule to avoid too many contests at the same time, or not.

Since i rejoined the contest schedule has looked fine not overcrowded and pretty much one at a time - whatever you have done this year seems great to me :)

John

Actually, that is really not so. The collab contest seemed to need the most leeway in regards to everyone getting on board and offered several extensions of the stated timeframe for that comp in order to allow for that - thus running headlong into other contests (either full or 1+1). I've gotten several PM's regarding this matter - and participants don't really like it when they overlap because they want to do BOTH but have to pick and choose as a result of this. It may appear there isn't a problem because we tend to go with the flow pretty easily around here, but I will say, I get fewer scorers when folks are tied up in a project of their own, and fewer entrants on occasion when there is a call to score something that has been completed. Since numbers tend to be a big issue in scoring and comps (on occasion) why not try to maximize the time allotted for everyone?

Fourthly, some of the above are primarily issues for those running contests (such as having a schedule).

Not really. It has very little to do with the mods schedule at all. Nige and I have our comp dates set. Period. If one of us is going on holiday, then the other fills in. If one wants to enter a particular comp, then the other fills in. I don't think it has ever happened that we are both unavailable to swap when needed. We back each other up - and it works quite well. I can see Len's point - but really - it simply doesn't matter who the mod will be or what they will be doing - it is easy to call for a replacement if necessary! People are helpful here and sometimes just need to be asked!

It is more important (IMO) that folks can count on and plan in advance which comps they want to participate in. Not having more than one running or scoring at a time would be much easier on everybody. This isn't an issue of micromanagement - it is just plain practical and would allow the Muse community here a chance to participate in more rather than less (or even being stuck with having to pick-and-choose or scurry with multiple projects at once).

~Bubbles :)

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Fair enough, Denise. I can only say that, as an entrant, it has never been an issue for me.

I either have something to enter, or I don't. I don't think many people plan their song development around the contests (with the exception of the collab comp).

That said, a schedule does no harm either :)

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My preference is to leave the Song Scoring as it is.

I've even changed my mind about defining "average", as this implies ranking, (the only perspective of "average" that is possible for everyone to share is the average between the entries!)

As to some of the other matters that have come up:

If people want to start a new comp, let them, and they can figure it out as they go. (I don't care who or what kind of comp!)

Developing a schedule is a great, but I wouldn't lose much sleep over preventing overlap. A schedule will help entrants decide which contests they want to enter, even if they can't enter all.

Keeping the scoring system the same between Lyrics & Song comps is tidy, but not necessary. There are enough comps with specialized criteria, and some people still score according to their own sensibilities, anyway. (In the Match the Melody contest, some people acknowledged they didn't score according to the main criteria... the very purpose of the contest!) I think this sort of thing is unavoidable, and we should gently encourage scorers to understand the directions.

Keep anonymity of the scorers, unless they individually choose to share.

Encourage more people to score.

And one new item...

Move "sour grapes" posts into a separate thread after a competition.

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I would rather leave it as it is than to change it to best to worst.

If I enter again, I prefer a score for my song/lyric, itself, not as in a race with the others only, but as both. Make sense? In other words, if I am given 6's I want to know, not just know I came in next to last or whatever.

Now, I need to go find some Christmas cheer. FAST! Where is it hidden?

:blink:

Kimberly

I won't be around as much anymore guys, but I do hope you all have a wonderful holiday and Happy New Year.

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And one new item...

Move "sour grapes" posts into a separate thread after a competition.

Go for it !

Leave this one for the PC Backslappers

Livelier discussion with the SG Backstabbers

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Here's a silly hypothesis

Let's say by some strange quirk of the laws governing this an all universes (yet to be discovered of course) the following songs were entered into the January Song Comp:

Song A: Under My Skin - Frank Sinatra ... Song J: Alexandre Leaving - Laughing Leonard Cohen

You would be knackered with the scoring system cos anything less than a 10 would be a total insult and they would all (well mostly) be pissed off never to return

But with a ranking system "Like A Rolling Stone" would be the clear winner and nobody could or would argue and nobody would be pissed off ?

Or would they ?

TeeHee

Robby

The problem with ONLY a ranking system is that you don't get feedback as to the (perceived) absolute quality of your song. However, if you're having a contest, you're by definition shooting for an ultimate ranking. I think the simplest answer is let people score like currently on 1 - 10 absolute scale [i would let people use whatever "precision" of decimal point they want, it doesn't matter], then the moderator/"statistician" can report the scores [as Alistair said, knowing that you got five "10's" and five "2's" means somthing very different than ten "6's"] but when the moderator calculates the contest "results" [i.e., "winners"] the scores are converted to ranks within each scorer and averaged [actually using the median rather than the mean is more valid, but we won't get into that] - this is actually very simple [i'll send anyone an Excel spreadsheet with the calculations embedded if they like]. Anyway, I think this is simple for all concerned and the only obstacle this doesn't deal with (IMHO) is if the songwriter doesn't like it that some people really like their song - Ron

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...knowing that you got five "10's" and five "2's" means somthing very different than ten "6's"] but when the moderator calculates the contest "results" [i.e., "winners"] the scores are converted to ranks within each scorer and averaged [actually using the median rather than the mean is more valid, but we won't get into that]...

I'll be asking you for help with my statistics class project next semester, too... :rolleyes:

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Here's a silly hypothesis

Let's say by some strange quirk of the laws governing this an all universes (yet to be discovered of course) the following songs were entered into the January Song Comp:

Song A: Under My Skin - Frank Sinatra ... Song J: Alexandre Leaving - Laughing Leonard Cohen

You would be knackered with the scoring system cos anything less than a 10 would be a total insult and they would all (well mostly) be pissed off never to return

But with a ranking system "Like A Rolling Stone" would be the clear winner and nobody could or would argue and nobody would be pissed off ?

Or would they ?

TeeHee

Robby

The problem with ONLY a ranking system is that you don't get feedback as to the (perceived) absolute quality of your song. However, if you're having a contest, you're by definition shooting for an ultimate ranking. I think the simplest answer is let people score like currently on 1 - 10 absolute scale [i would let people use whatever "precision" of decimal point they want, it doesn't matter], then the moderator/"statistician" can report the scores [as Alistair said, knowing that you got five "10's" and five "2's" means somthing very different than ten "6's"] but when the moderator calculates the contest "results" [i.e., "winners"] the scores are converted to ranks within each scorer and averaged [actually using the median rather than the mean is more valid, but we won't get into that] - this is actually very simple [i'll send anyone an Excel spreadsheet with the calculations embedded if they like]. Anyway, I think this is simple for all concerned and the only obstacle this doesn't deal with (IMHO) is if the songwriter doesn't like it that some people really like their song - Ron

Just as an eventuality, what if you get two really really really really really really good songs ? I mean - perfection man ! How do yer mark em ?

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Just as an eventuality, what if you get two really really really really really really good songs ? I mean - perfection man ! How do yer mark em ?

If you think they are both perfect (which would be *very* rare for most people), mark one "10" and one "9". Somehow, somewhere, you'd be forced to make a decision on *something*. You'll benefit by developing your critical listening skills. You'd still be only one person scoring. Even if other people felt similarly, the might reverse the "9" and "10" score, and there will always be a few people with "fringe" tastes that will skew the results.

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Just as an eventuality, what if you get two really really really really really really good songs ? I mean - perfection man ! How do yer mark em ?

If you think they are both perfect (which would be *very* rare for most people), mark one "10" and one "9". Somehow, somewhere, you'd be forced to make a decision on *something*. You'll benefit by developing your critical listening skills. You'd still be only one person scoring. Even if other people felt similarly, the might reverse the "9" and "10" score, and there will always be a few people with "fringe" tastes that will skew the results.

Perfection is impossible! Give 'em both 9's :)

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A song doesn't have to be perfect, which I guess would mean flawless, for me to want to give it a 10. And no song is flawless once you start picking the production to death, or the singer's vocal skills, or whatever your favorite nit is that has nothing to do with the lyric, the tune, or how well the lyric fits the tune. The song just has to be wonderful. It might make me want to work it up myself, or at least to download it so I can hear it over and over once the contest itself is history. I have had this reaction to comp songs several times (Billy and Ian's "Trampled Roses," among others). Though I haven't yet reacted this way to two different songs in the same comp, it could happen. This is why I would like to preserve the option of awarding more than one 10, for when it does happen.

As to the person who awarded 9s and 10s exclusively, that might be even more rare here than someone giving only 1s and 2s. Maybe this was pure, unmitigated kindness, from someone who figured some entries would be getting a pretty bracing dose of input as it was. It reminded me of those kids in elementary school who wanted to make sure every single kid in the class got at least one valentine.

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Okey Dokey

It don't bother me none how it is scored - but what bothers me is I can't see no argument for only allowing one 9 and one 10.

If someone votes all 10s it's like an abstention ? so there ain't no point in doing that.

I 10 out of 12 comps I only marked on a scale between 5 and 10 cos I didn't want to upset anyone and sometimes I couldn't decide which I liked best so I gave 3 or 4 songs 8's and disregarded 9s and 10s - so the scale of 1 - 10 becomes 5 - 8.

If you have a scale of 1 - 10 have a scale of 1 - 10 !!!!

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Okey Dokey

It don't bother me none how it is scored - but what bothers me is I can't see no argument for only allowing one 9 and one 10.

If someone votes all 10s it's like an abstention ? so there ain't no point in doing that.

I 10 out of 12 comps I only marked on a scale between 5 and 10 cos I didn't want to upset anyone and sometimes I couldn't decide which I liked best so I gave 3 or 4 songs 8's and disregarded 9s and 10s - so the scale of 1 - 10 becomes 5 - 8.

If you have a scale of 1 - 10 have a scale of 1 - 10 !!!!

Maybe I'm missing your point but you're making the scale of 1 - 10 something other than a scale of 1 - 10. The only one 10 and only one 9 comes from people not wanting to ruin their average or feeling bad about marking anybody less than a 10. It was a smart move on Nige's part.

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I'm all for leaving it as it is. The scoring system just doesn't seem that important to me, but on balance I think what we have is as good as it can be, and certainly as good as it has ever been.

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Okey Dokey

It don't bother me none how it is scored - but what bothers me is I can't see no argument for only allowing one 9 and one 10.

If someone votes all 10s it's like an abstention ? so there ain't no point in doing that.

I 10 out of 12 comps I only marked on a scale between 5 and 10 cos I didn't want to upset anyone and sometimes I couldn't decide which I liked best so I gave 3 or 4 songs 8's and disregarded 9s and 10s - so the scale of 1 - 10 becomes 5 - 8.

If you have a scale of 1 - 10 have a scale of 1 - 10 !!!!

Maybe I'm missing your point but you're making the scale of 1 - 10 something other than a scale of 1 - 10. The only one 10 and only one 9 comes from people not wanting to ruin their average or feeling bad about marking anybody less than a 10. It was a smart move on Nige's part.

You're missing my point

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I'm all for leaving it as it is. The scoring system just doesn't seem that important to me, but on balance I think what we have is as good as it can be, and certainly as good as it has ever been.

That's great - and it's also the trouble with democracy - cos "on balance" I think it's a pile of schite - it won't make any difference to nothing - but it's a pile of schite - I know you don't wanna change and there ain't no need to change but a change would be for the better

Not a lot of people can understand that because they are not as neebed as I am right now !

Just tell me what happens if, in a competition, you get three "perfect" songs and, say, 5 crap songs.........................no wait a minute - I just seen the light and think you're right after all

It's a talent to be able to admit when you're wrong and I think I just acquired that talent..........

Let's stick with a nominal scale of 1 - 10 and moan like f**** if we get less than 4

Keep on rockin'

Hey please disregard this - I'm just back from the pub

Hugs

Robby

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So, lots of discussion but what's the result?

Status quo?*

Change something?

Time for that poll Bubbs?

* Now there's a thought for a song contest, three chords only...

I say we should just pin this particular thread, so that next time someone comes in questioning the scoring, we can just point them to this monster thread and have them add their own previously-considered-but-ultimately-rejected idea biggrin.gif

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Duly noted and PINNED! :)

Now - I don't think we need a poll for the "genre" thing. Donna said she only planned on doing it 2x a year. She can decide when she wants to do that and the parameters of the defined genre. Let's see what she comes up with and what interest can be generated in the process.

JDI.

Is there anything else we needed a poll about? Me thinks not. Nige did have one other options which I don't believe he has shared yet - but he will be back on soon enough and can address that.

:)

~Bubbles

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Wow, when I started reading this, I had NO IDEA it was going to take me so long -- 4 Flippin' pages peeps!! We're a long-winded group :lol:

All of which to say, I like the system as is and as a non-contestant (most of the time) I love to vote in the lyric/song comps -- I just need reminders. When I ran the Ultimate Challenge (which I'm surprised did NOT get mentioned in this discussion of complex voting processes lol) I actively sought out voters; others have done so with the lyric and song comps -- and it works!

So, mods -- advertise and if you're looking for an extra voter, PM me :D

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I'm usually good for a vote too, mods. I'm not always paying attention but a gentle reminder will get a response.

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I say we should just pin this particular thread, so that next time someone comes in questioning the scoring, we can just point them to this monster thread and have them add their own previously-considered-but-ultimately-rejected idea biggrin.gif

Being new here and still getting a feel for the place I have a few thoughts. Which can be ignored with no risk of insult to the poster.

1-10 scales are subjective and not objective. Even if you say 10 = perfect song and 1 = worst song in the world, they are still subjective. In a recent manager training class we were rated on a variety of questions on a scale of 1 - 10 by our peers and subordinates. When we reviewed the anonymous ratings it was explained to us how human nature works and how to interpret the results. It didn't matter what the average was. You had to look at a single scorer to see the value of a rating.

If one person rated 10 on some things, 9 on others 9 on others and 7 as the lowest. 7 is still the thing I have to work on. 7 doesn't mean anything by itself. Only in relation to the other ratings does it have value.

If the next person rated me 7 on some things 5 on others and 3 on a few other things it was the 3 I had to work on and the 7 was my strength. Again that 7 had no value except in comparison to the rest of the ratings.

The problem, as I see it, with a 1-10 scale is the recipient of those scores have no idea what to compare it to. Unless reviewer A says i scored the following songs this way, you have no idea what your 1 3 5 or 7 might mean. You could have been the second favorite song and only received a 5. Who knows.

Edit: P.S. - Can someone explain to me why a vote of 10s and 9s is a bad thing? That vote actually helps differentiate half (or over half in this case) of the songs as more deserving of a win that the rest.

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And furthermore...

Has anyone here done songfight? If you are unfamiliar with songfight allow me to explain briefly. A title is posted and anyone in the whole world can write a song and submit it. Usually it's around 10 days from title posting to deadline. When the deadline hits the moderator puts all the songs mp3 on a page and you can listen to them. Each song has a check. You can vote only once, but you can vote for as many songs as you like. You may vote as a contributor or not, but it is expected (but not required) that if you are contributor that you will review each song. Often in the reviews the reviewer will say who they voted for either in the reviews or as a list at the end. The most votes win. If there is a tie, then both songs are the winner for that songfight.

This could be implemented here as a poll in which you can vote only once, but can pick as many entries as you'd like.

Pro- Rankers do not have to compare songs, they simply vote for all the songs that they like.

It's still subjective (as any voting will be) but there is no confusion of what a 1 or a 3 or a 7 means.

Cons- At songfight, reviews are harsh. I'm not sure it's because of the voting system or because you do not have to register in order to vote or submit.

It is possible to receive very few votes. Sites like this one that want to encourage developing artists will feel the sting of someone getting 1 or 2 votes. (I've a songfight entry with the fewest votes of the week. And while I don't take it personally, it sure didn't feel good.)

At songfight anyone can vote without registering, so it is easy to cheat. Just get your friends to vote for only your song and you can swing the balance your way.

I'm not saying this is necessarily the way to go here, although i do think it has some merit. I do think it is an option not mentioned above. Feel free to discard it as it may not suit this community.

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My observations, whatever they’re worth.

When I was voting, I always took my responsibilities seriously.

Even though the contests are nothing more than a bit of harmless good fun amongst an odd-ball bunch of fellow dreamers who share a keen interest in songs, if I am to exercise my critical faculties and take the time & trouble to listen to entries and give honest thoughtful consideration then I'm determined I should do a proper job. Or I may as well not bother.

My personal prejudices are what they are: I am no big fan of country music; I have occasional issues with minor aspects of FunkDaddy's on-line persona; I have extravagant affection and admiration for the postings and person of Alistair the mensch. For instance.

But I have easily picked a country song as best, voted FunkDaddy the winner, and ranked Al’s work as lesser. My vote is about the song and songwriting. That is what I expect myself to be evaluating. Personal prejudice doesn’t come into it. Neither does production or performance.

Given that point of seriousness and the other point of fun, the idea of cheating and contest-rigging always seems pretty pathetic and surprising. Bad-feeling about it is evident. It would certainly subvert and undermine any value to my efforts.

I even took the scoring guidelines seriously. Researched ‘em. Read ‘em. Made myself a marking plan on their model. Laboured with it assiduously. No attempts at ranking. Each according to its own individual merit. And I treat “excellence” and “average” as meaningful concepts. I aim for objectivity and end up giving low mean scores without meaning to be mean.

Outside elements of non-Muse punters would offer interesting and informative input, but I bet they will be more likely swayed by ‘production’ and ‘performance’ impressions – like regular folk. Having said that, it seems clear that even normal Museoid regular folk participants might be influenced by those things – so it’s probably a big non-issue.

The voting process is arduous.

My choices have never been reflected in the results.

Those songs which have scored “poor” from me appear regularly among the winners.

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1-10 scales are subjective and not objective. Even if you say 10 = perfect song and 1 = worst song in the world, they are still subjective.

Agreed, but it doesn’t matter what your own internal rating system is just as long as you rate the songs relative to each other as you see it.

In other words if you rate

SongA = 4

SongB = 7

SongC = 6

and I rate

SongA = 6

SongB = 9

SongC = 8

And someone else rates

SongA = 2

SongB = 5

SongC = 3

In this example we all like SongB best but we just have different ways of using the 1 to 10 system.

Edit: P.S. - Can someone explain to me why a vote of 10s and 9s is a bad thing? That vote actually helps differentiate half (or over half in this case) of the songs as more deserving of a win that the rest.

I don’t think anyone said a score of 9 or 10 is a bad thing. The reason I restricted the 10 and 9 scores was because some scorers were dishing out 9s and 10s like sweets and I wanted people to think a little harder about which songs (if any) were worthy of a ‘special’ high score.

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As for myself, I've adjusted my criteria for voting in the past while, which has a been the result of how substantially high the bar has been raised in this contest.

The 6 point score I give today, may well have garnered a 9 or 10 a few years ago. The production level on some of these home recordings is truly impressive.

With this contest, I didn't hand out a 9 or 10 to anyone, not that I thought any song wasn't worthy of a 9 or 10. A lot of the songs had reached the bar IMO., my scores were thus reflected as 6s, 7s and 8s

That said, if a song is to receive a 9 or 10 from me now, it's just going have to be a song that raises the bar again.

In other words it's going have to be a truly saleable song, in whatever genre or style it's presented.

I think the current criteria for scorning in this particular contest is just fine as is. I also think regardless of whichever criteria is used, not every voter will be on the same page, so to speak.

About the only thing that annoys me, though it seams to be less prevalent these days, is the way some entries have whined about the low scores they had received.

To them all I can say is, "hey, it's a contest, you entered, you got low scores, suck it up, thank the voters, try harder next time, and don't whine."

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I think the current criteria for scorning in this particular contest is just fine as is. I also think regardless of whichever criteria is used, not every voter will be on the same page, so to speak.

About the only thing that annoys me, though it seams to be less prevalent these days, is the way some entries have whined about the low scores they had received.

To them all I can say is, "hey, it's a contest, you entered, you got low scores, suck it up, thank the voters, try harder next time, and don't whine."

Amen, brother.

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the current criteria for scorning

Brilliant slip!

.

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In this example we all like SongB best but we just have different ways of using the 1 to 10 system.

So why not use a numbering system simply for relative ranking ?

Or has that been tried and tested before ?

.

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So why not use a numbering system simply for relative ranking ?

Or has that been tried and tested before ?

That discussion also took place earlier in this thread. Personally, I would not want a relative ranking scale. I'd rate songs on how they stand on their own.

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That discussion also took place earlier in this thread.

Bugger! - I missed that bit - now I'll have to re-read the lot once more. Pah.

I just thought it would obviate those concerns about the individualisations of criteria.

.

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I actually like a ranking system. Put them in order from most deserving to win to least deserving. Tally the scores and be done with it. But I understand many people do not like it and why it's not being used.

I think I understand the reasoning behind the single 9 or 10 rating, but I'm not sure I agree with it. A for instance: 7 songs are entered and two are, imo, very good and obviously (to me) better than the rest. I would rank them both 10 and then rank the rest lower. With the current rule, I would probably just rank them both 8 (to keep them equal) and then lower the remaining ratings by 2 so that the difference was kept the same. So instead of 10 10 8 7 7 5 4, I would rank 8 8 6 4 4 3 2. If i wanted to abuse the system I'd rank all the ones I liked 8 and all the ones I didn't like 1.

I guess just being told that i can't rate a song how I feel it should be rated because some others rate in a manner that makes coring difficult just doesn't sit well.

That being said, I don't really have a problem with the rule. Especially if it works. I tend to argue sometimes for the sake of arguing so if I've done that, I apologize. Here in a few months I'll enter my first contest and have more credibility in these discussions. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

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You know we've had this discussion several times before and a case can be made for rank-order (ordinal) scoring: The contest is really that, a ranking; and a number with some absolute meaning (cardinal): Better feedback for the writer as to how the absolute quality of their entry is perceived. I understand limiting the top scores. But for the life of me I can't understand why the scoring is limited to whole numbers between 1 and 10, since trhis necessarily limits the ability to differentiate songs - on an absolute basis because real quality is probabl strongly clustered in the middle - and on a ranking basis when there are more than 10 songs. Especially when people get really hurt with scores below 5. I'd suggest either using any number of decimals or just rate between 0 and 100.

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Note - this has been edit by NigeQ to retain continuity - Extract taken from the December 1+1 thread

These were some really good ones this month and I didn't pen any of them below a 6. I am baffled at how some songs got 2's....

Maybe I am mixed up... :blink:

I use the criteria for the lyric contest as far as what a number means when I score on all of the contests...Maybe posting this would help some voters realise when they vote, and put down a 1 or 2, what it means,that putting a 2 has a basic meaning it has no quality and should be scrapped..I mean, really? a 2? a 1 for Stewart's song, come on!!!

Or maybe though I have mentioned this before, some do not want to use such a scale, but if everyone continues to complain that their song/lyric got a 2-3 or 4...and that no one knows how to vote, or knows song structure or a good one if it hit them upside the head, then maybe a criteria would be helpful in the matter? :) If you do not agree, what do you suggest?

I know even if we posted a criteria or scale, some are gonna do what they want, out of spite or who knows what...but if one actually gives someone a 1 or 2 but everyone else gives them 8-10...then I think that person should be honest enough to speak up and explain their reasons behind it, show us why, back up your score...but it seems whomever is giving these really low ones is not doing so...

I know Nigel said there is the same amount of leeway between someone giving a 5 and a 10...but are we to go by the criteria examples of what numbers mean or not? That is my question :)

these are the numbers that were under rules (on lyrical)...does anyone else use them or do you have your own ideas for what a number means?

Because I did NOT see a song in the bunch that was as number 2 says...

2 meaning...bad (pray)There are a few lyrical qualities but it's far from a lyric. Keep some lines for another lyric and scrap the rest.

1 -awful (no hope)

There's nothing recognisable as a lyric here. Bin it, nothing worth keeping.

2 -bad (pray)

There are a few lyrical qualities but it's far from a lyric. Keep some lines for another lyric and scrap the rest.

3 -poor (needs alot of work)

Some of the basics are there but they are not consistent or interesting. This looks like a first draft.

4 -below average (needs some work)

The basics are in place but it's dull. A promising 1st draft - need to keep working on this.

5 -average

The structure is sound and the topic is okay, but nothing special. Looks like a 2nd or 3rd draft. Some bits need rewriting.

6 -above average

The structure is good with a few original lines and ideas. Rewrite some lines and tweak the rest.

7 -very good

Good writing, several memorable lines, an original concept and the lyric "sings" to me. Some tweaks needed but nearly there.

8 -excellent

Full of interesting lines and not a bad line amongst them. A topic that is original and fun/thought-provoking/powerful. A few tweaks perhaps but this is good to go.

9 -hit

Great, a pleasure to read. Ticks all the boxes, great structure, reads like a song, killer lines, original and effective ideas. I want to read this again and I want to hear it as well.

10 -classic

Wow, inspirational. This has the X factor. A professional quality lyric with no filler. Every word is in the right place and every word is right. This is begging for music. I will read this again and again.

I agree with Jonie 1000% on this...have said it before too.. :P

These song contests get more and more difficult to score. The quality is so high it makes a real task out of separating one from another with only the use of 10 points. I sort of miss the .5 option but won't whinge about it.

Kimberly

and PS. I am not mad about our scores, I just want the contest in general to be fair as possible to everyone involved. Thanks to Paddy and Gordon for your comments on Nowhere Bound and to Scenes for your encouragement and kind words. :)

That's a very good guide for scoring and I wanted to point out that with a few tweaks to the wording it works for songs as well.

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It’s interesting that there are similar scoring discussions in both the Lyric Contest and Song Contest.

This discussion explains a lot for me. I’ve tried to follow the contests for the past several months (voted when I remembered, checked in after the fact other times, came in at the bottom the couple of times I entered). I’ve often been mystified by the scoring, on both the high and the low end.

From some of the comments already posted, it seems that there is no common agreement among the regular participants about how to score the entries – or, for that matter, about what is being scored. One regular says, in essence, he’ll only give good scores to songs in genres he likes (seems rather limiting for a contest that’s not officially genre-specific). Another says that execution is important in his scoring (isn’t that more of a performance/production critique?). Someone else spreads his scores out for the sake of differentiating among the entries in the overall results (kinda arbitrary, isn’t it?). I suspect there are a number of other scoring systems in use here.

My point is this: With all these individualized, idiosyncratic scoring systems, the resulting scores per song are of limited utility as feedback. Obviously, folks are having fun with the contest each month – nothin’ wrong with that -- but for someone who’s outside looking in the opacity of the scoring is a real disincentive to get more involved. If I don't know what my score means - whether it's good or bad - I can't learn anything from it.

Just curious: Is there some reason the regular participants haven’t agreed upon – and published - a generally-accepted list of criteria for judging these contests?

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This seems a good time to bring to your attention the Song Comp Discussion Thread which is pinned on this very forum. At lot of what is being discussed has already been covered.

In particular:

I make the scoring as clear as I can on the monthly song comp (I have no responsibility for Lyric Comps). At present the monthly song comp is 1=poor, 10=excellent - the in-between scores are determined by your own criteria, you decide what that is. The only reason I say 10 = excellent and 1 = poor is so that you know that 10 high and 1 is low and not the other way around. The rest is up to you and there is no right or wrong.

Nige, do you still have the 1-10 guidelines in the song contests?

No, they went a long time ago, for the whole of 2010 it's just 10 Excellent, 1 poor as explained above.

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Just curious: Is there some reason the regular participants haven’t agreed upon – and published - a generally-accepted list of criteria for judging these contests?

I can see what you're saying-but even if there was a guideline-most people-myself included-wouldn't adhere to it..

People are just gonna score according to what feels 'right' for them..

Myself-I kinda follow Paddys formula -listen to each entry a few times and use the scores to differentiate my preferences

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Scubed said...

If I don't know what my score means - whether it's good or bad - I can't learn anything from it.

I agree totally. :)

And yes this has been discussed before, but since Jonie and a few others brought it up again about their scores and how they feel that people scoring don't seem to know what they are doing, can we not attempt to come up with a guideline of some sort? Telling what it means if you grade a song, 1+1 or a lyric at a 4, it means this this and that...that way if a person sees this criteria at the time for scoring, maybe they will use it...if they refuse to and still give someone a 2 that means it is NOT worth the paper it is written on, then that person should have to explain themselves...if everyone else gave them an 8...I feel if a score is questioned enough, that person should either go to the person privately or in public and explain their reasons because as scubed said, it is a learning experience and that person that gave a 2 may have a valid point to make about why they gave such a low score.

Just asking...not that anything will change :) I am probably beating a dead horse...oh well.. :P

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At least the Winners are never contested, just the seemingly unjust low scoring ... it's human thing ,,,on our best day and a group of people with a common objective , It's Organized Chaos..

If I was the Score God , My rules would be very simple,,, 12 entrants score 1-12 -- 10 entrants score 1-10 etc etc ... lowest score is the winner . the outcome at the top would be the same but for the voting which seems malicious it controls the damage to an extent..

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Scores...scores....scores......if the "cream always rises to the top" what's the problem?? It's never going to change. Everyone gripes about 2's......I can think of another way to cheat the game, that falls way under the radar. It's more devious and underhanded, too! :ph34r:

The 2's and 3's, may be deliberatly offensive :angry: ....and in my opinion,they may not be fair, but they're more honest.

If we are really concerned with total honesty....I would be in favor of raising the curtain anonimity after the contest is over. -Tom

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"At least the Winners are never contested, just the seemingly unjust low scoring ... "

Fortunately, Kanye West is not on the Muse. :)

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At least the Winners are never contested, just the seemingly unjust low scoring ... it's human thing ,,,on our best day and a group of people with a common objective , It's Organized Chaos..

If I was the Score God , My rules would be very simple,,, 12 entrants score 1-12 -- 10 entrants score 1-10 etc etc ... lowest score is the winner . the outcome at the top would be the same but for the voting which seems malicious it controls the damage to an extent..

It's true, the top positions are not affected by the old wild score, as long as there is a reasonable number of voters (that's why I promote the comps outside of this board)

I would be happy to adopt the 'putting songs in order method', in fact there is nothing to stop folk doing that now. It's just that if there are more than 10 songs they would need to pair up 1 or more songs.

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Is there a rule that prohibits people from voting ?

Like you have got to have been here for a while first or something ?

If there is it's a daft rule cos you need more voters !

Unless it's to proclude getting your mates to vote for you or something like that ? But that can happen anyway ?

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Is there a rule that prohibits people from voting ?

Like you have got to have been here for a while first or something ?

If there is it's a daft rule cos you need more voters !

Unless it's to proclude getting your mates to vote for you or something like that ? But that can happen anyway ?

Here you go - Song Comp Rules

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I am all for people expressing opinions, but let's not kid ourselves that this is a poll or that we will arrive at consensus.

Firstly, the questions asked represent multiple polls.

Secondly, only those who visit this thread will express a view (and there are plenty of people with an interest who will not visit this thread).

Thirdly, there is no commitment from those who run the competitions to run them along the lines expressed here. As far as I am concerned, the way the contest is run is entirely down to them (though I would hope they would listen to input - and from what I can see, they do).

Fourthly, some of the above are primarily issues for those running contests (such as having a schedule).

Lastly, how will anyone make sense of any of the answers? The reply above gives answers that are in direct conflict with each other. For example, a ranking system does not require an answer to question 2.

Having said all that, my "vote" is to give Nige's ideas a try. It sounds as if his ideas have legs.

PS. By the way, who says we have "absolute" scoring now? As far as I am concerned, relative scoring is perfectly doable in the current system. In fact, I score relatively.

What he said :)

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