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doinker

Redrum/ Reason/ Programming drums

Hi There,

I am here because it's better to be here than throwing my computer out the window (bad joke). Just kidding. I want to know if anyone has seen any fantastic and fairly exhaustive tutorials on how to program an entire song on the drums in reason. I've been on youtube and all over the old internet, but nothing that I've come across is really geared for rock and all.

I can make a good beat (or an OK one at least) in redrum and make a fill in matrix, but from there it's a matter of making an intro, chorus, roll, etc. and then getting the whole thing sequenced in the proper order.

One of my major issues is the fact that Matrix keeps changing patterns on me (seemingly at random though not actually at random, probably). Thanks and keep rockin'!

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I'd say the problem you're having finding tutorials geared towards rock n roll in Reason is that Reason is not geared towards rock n roll at all.

But at the end of the day, a drumbeat is a drumbeat.

http://audio.tutsplus.com/tutorials/composition/make-a-punchy-rock-drum-beat-using-reasons-redrum/

Hm, rock drums in Reason? Stranger things have happened!

A GREAT reason (pardon the pun) IMHO to use Reason for rock drums is exactly as you say Funk, that it is NOT geared toward rock and roll!

Sometimes the opposite is true! :)

When they tell you;

"It'll never work."

Laugh at them and make it happen! THIS is precisely what is needed in the music world of today...Innovation. Don't give up, dig in deeper. At the end of the day you may wind up with a very original drum sound for your efforts. Hey, you may create the perfect combination, you'll never know though, unless you try.

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I was explaining why he's probably having trouble finding a "rock" tutorial for Reason.

Like I said in the other thread...

Honestly, I think sometimes if you're doing a production on the cheap and don't really have the scratch for good drum samples/loops/MIDI, you might be better served to just try recording some handclaps and foot stomps and what not, it will give your track a more organic feel. Obviously depends on the kind of music but I notice this trend in a lot of indie acoustic music lately and I like it!

And embrace the drumloop! You don't have to always try and fake an acoustic kit. A nice steady electronic beat will add more to your song than a boring, poorly recorded acoustic loop with no fills. It sounds more "correct" when it's an electronic sound vs an acoustic sound.

Use what you've got. Create your own style. There's nothing wrong with electronic drums or loops. I'm working on a tune right now that is sort of John Mayer-ish (think pretty highly of myself don't I? :lol: ), using a loop from Stylus RMX.

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Fine example of a rock song with a fairly simple electronic beat (that doesn't change at all from what I hear) Super catchy.

It gels better with this hipster rock kind of stuff for sure. But my point is, don't waste time trying to get an acoustic "lifelike" sound out of Reason, you're going to absolutely kill your creativity (unless you're like me and enjoy tweaking drum sounds/loops/etc as much as you do songwriting) Don't let it get in the way of your songwriting, program a beat that sounds fresh and inspires you and jam on it. Don't sit there tweaking knobs trying to make Reason sound like a real drummer because unless they've made serious advancements with the program since I last played with it, it won't be happening.

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Thanks guys. This helps a bunch ... mostly I can understand why I was banging my head against the wall so much (wrong program). I think I'll take your advice and try to use a little of Reason for what it's worth ... BUT - what are you guys using for a simpler standard rock thing?

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EZDrummer, BFD, Addictive Drums. They're all intended to "fake" acoustic drummers. I can only speak for EZD and it's big brother Superior Drummer, but if you don't mind auditioning the MIDI and finding the right groove, and tweaking them a bit when necessary, you'll easily get a natural sounding drum track. ToonTrack (EZD/Superior Drummer) provides a lot of expansion with MIDI that is actual drumming, not programmed beats. I'm sure BFD and Addictive have the same.

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BUT - what are you guys using for a simpler standard rock thing?

Yep...EZ, Superior Drummer...all will get it done, though I tend to use Addictive Drums.

I like the GUI better and I seem to get things done faster.

Here's an example of some cues I put together for a publisher using AD.

Track 1

Track 2

Track 3

Track 4

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Thx again guys. & Nice tracks Roger ... those drums sound very good. Did the publisher bite?

I'll let y'all know how it goes ... hoping to get at least one track done this week.

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Just out of interest, folks, I notice that Jamstix wasn't mentioned anywhere here. I've been playing around with it for a while now, and while I like the sounds and the generally organic feel of it, I've struggled to get results that have been all that useful to me. I'm interested to hear of others' experiences with it.

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Jamstix seems like a cool idea, but it also seems to me the concept of random drum pattern generation would make it hard to lock into a groove sometimes. Unless I'm misunderstanding the engine, and I'm sure you can dial down the "randomness". Never used it myself. Only drum programs I've used are EZD/SD 2.0 and Battery.

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Thx again guys. & Nice tracks Roger ... those drums sound very good. Did the publisher bite?

Yeah...signed those and lots more. Had a good year. :)

Just out of interest, folks, I notice that Jamstix wasn't mentioned anywhere here. I've been playing around with it for a while now, and while I like the sounds and the generally organic feel of it, I've struggled to get results that have been all that useful to me. I'm interested to hear of others' experiences with it.

I also tried Jamstix but didn't feel the real time jamming features were worth using.

I always heavily edit my midi drums and still needed to with Jamstix so there was no advantage.

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I also tried Jamstix but didn't feel the real time jamming features were worth using.

I always heavily edit my midi drums and still needed to with Jamstix so there was no advantage.

I don't like (or use) the real-time jamming side either, but I had hoped the MIDI generation might have been more useful than I've so far found it to be. Even though I tend to heavily edit my drum tracks too, it makes life easier if I have a simple but effective MIDI framework to start with. I quite like Jamstix as a simple-to-use and good-sounding passive drum module though. It's got quite an organic interface and sound compared to, say, Battery, and it offers a reasonable amount of flexibility without being overly complex.

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Addictive drums, EZD and Reason = good plugins and programs for sure, all Swedish companys :D .

Yep, you guys sure punch above your weight when it comes to this kind of software. I reckon Reason has to be one of the most elegantly designed pieces of software ever devised. It combines form with function in a way that's a bit reminiscent of Apple products. :)

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I was explaining why he's probably having trouble finding a "rock" tutorial for Reason.

Like I said in the other thread...

Honestly, I think sometimes if you're doing a production on the cheap and don't really have the scratch for good drum samples/loops/MIDI, you might be better served to just try recording some handclaps and foot stomps and what not, it will give your track a more organic feel. Obviously depends on the kind of music but I notice this trend in a lot of indie acoustic music lately and I like it!

And embrace the drumloop! You don't have to always try and fake an acoustic kit. A nice steady electronic beat will add more to your song than a boring, poorly recorded acoustic loop with no fills. It sounds more "correct" when it's an electronic sound vs an acoustic sound.

Use what you've got. Create your own style. There's nothing wrong with electronic drums or loops. I'm working on a tune right now that is sort of John Mayer-ish (think pretty highly of myself don't I? :lol: ), using a loop from Stylus RMX.

I so totally agree. A drum loop in and of itself is a drum loop but, if you take the time to get creative with the loop you can bring a sorts of "life" to a simple loop.

When I work with a drum loop or a hip hop type "beat" one of the very first things I do is print 6 copies of it. What I do to each of those copies is totally dependent upon what is going on both inside of the loop and around the loop interms of instrumentation. For instance, I'll listen to find the element of the song which really brings the spirit of the song to life. This may be as simple as a tiny shaker sound, whatever, it need not be the main melodic element, it might be something "tiny" or, it may be something very significant. I'll manipulate one of the copied loops to accentuate this element. If the snare sound is just whatever, I'll use a second copy to work just on this element of the loop. I can honestly say with a hip hop loop chances are very good that even though it may have an exellent feel, 9 times out of 10 the person who made the original loop didn't take the time necessary to make the loop "pop." Some of these guys pound out this stuff like it is an injection molded, assembly line product. This may be how they get it done in the heat of the creative moment however, as decent as it may sound, once you've taken the time to identify the elements which need some more salt and pepper you can bring "life" to an otherwise dull sounding loop which may simply need another set of ears to wake it up.

I am speaking from the perspective of not being the guy who originally created the loop, more of a mix thing.

Working with hip hop the way things almost always go for me is;

I listen to the "beat" a coupke of days before I am going to begin recording vocals takes. If possible, I like to hear a quick take of the rapper's 16's so, I can get a feel for where the lyric fits into the harmonic structure of the song. If there are spots which I feel either the lyric or the delivery is weak, I will highlight a sheet with notes. What I am trying to convey here is that it is quite possible that it is not entirely the fault of the loop when "lifelessness" is something I am hearing. It may be a combination of things working against the feel.

By the time we are ready to begin recording vocals I will have enhanced the loop in many small ways, all of which add up to a "big" difference.

Fine example of a rock song with a fairly simple electronic beat (that doesn't change at all from what I hear) Super catchy.

It gels better with this hipster rock kind of stuff for sure. But my point is, don't waste time trying to get an acoustic "lifelike" sound out of Reason, you're going to absolutely kill your creativity (unless you're like me and enjoy tweaking drum sounds/loops/etc as much as you do songwriting) Don't let it get in the way of your songwriting, program a beat that sounds fresh and inspires you and jam on it. Don't sit there tweaking knobs trying to make Reason sound like a real drummer because unless they've made serious advancements with the program since I last played with it, it won't be happening.

One of the things which I really do believe will help here is simple realization. Reason IS NOT an acoustic kit, and the more you struggle against this fact by trying to make it conform, the more it will wind up irking you. Reason is not an acoustic kit. It is not going to sound like an acoustic kit, and that's OK. You can do your best to emulate things like tape compression, wow and flutter, and other artifacts of analog tape but, man, listen to some Metallica. You want to hear the sound of real drums in a real room? You can hear tape artifacts all day long. You will never achieve this tonality after the fact with plug ins, you can try, you may even get close but, it will not be the same. Is this "Bad." Not necessarily. I suppose it's quite a lot like the serenity prayer which they use at AA and all of these rehab clinics LOL. Accepting the things that you cannot change is some good stuff! Point? Make it right from jump street, spend the time, and then, you don't have to change anything.

On the other hand, searching for the perfect sound for each and every source is kinda nuts anyway. A mix is a mix. Something may sound utterly fantastic all on its own but, sound like dung in the mix. At the end of the day if a tune makes you move, and the vocal captures your attention then you've hit a possible home run.

Check this link Funk...A famous mix guy (Dave Pensado) enhancing a loop (Priceless);

http://www.pensadosplace.tv/2011/10/18/into-the-lair-24-enhancing-loops-and-other-instruments/

I think you may get quite a lot out of watching this guys work. :)

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